Mysteries of space...

[kristof65]

As not to derail the thread in which this was posted, I'm starting a new thread.

Spacewreck had something that Traveller sorely lacks - mystery. Every anomaly in Charted Space seems to be explained by Ancients, or possibly psionics. I find that to be incredibly boring.

In TTA you have derelict war worlds, ships colliding with their own jump shadows, spacecraft found in floating chunks of ice, alien wrecks of unknown origin, ghosts from past wars, alien ships that radiate sound, radioactive wrecks on godforsaken rockballs, transparent visitors, hydroponic labs going out of control...

It all adds up to a universe where humanity is very very small, and that the universe is stranger and more hostile than we are ready for. Every trip into the unknown should be fraught with risk, not from alien critters or jump mishaps, but from things that we have no readiness for at all. And that feeling is in no way present in the Charted Space setting.

Not disagreeing with you, but wondering at the angle you're coming from. Is it that the Ancients existed, or is it because that the OTU has gone out of its way in some cases to 'explain' these anomolies (IE, the Secrets of the Ancients adventure and Grandfather's exposition)?

Would you prefer a published setting in which things like your examples are presented, but no explainations given or even hinted at?

I'm asking the question from the perspective a potential game designer - what would make a published setting more desirable in this area than the OTU is?

 

[rust]

An in my opinion good example for a way to (re-) introduce mystery into
a setting is Mongoose's "The Rim" supplement for the Babylon 5 RPG, be-
cause it contains lots of interesting ideas for the design of creatures, arte-
facts, situations and thelike that will be truly new to the characters.

In my view, the important point is that characters should not be able to
have even the slightest idea of what they might encounter once they lea-
ve their species' "charted space", and that the unknown phenomena / my-
steries should have more than one cause (Ancients ...) for their existence
- in fact, each mystery should be unique, with a unique background story.

 

[zanwot]

I'm not EDG, but I think there are 2 different features mixed up here: "general weirdness" (more about atmosphere) and "secrets" (more linked to plot).

Traveller has little weirdness, maybe because back in the days a manipulating stafish alien and psionics were considered weird enough. Also weirdness is quite easily very cheesy, and not hard SF at all (think Master of Orion cheesy with space monsters etc). But it is not impossible, quite the contrary: Think Transhuman Space. And while we are at it, why not a space monster, as long as well thought out?

The question of secrets (like the Ancients), and wether they should stay as mysteries or be explained to the referee is another matter quite common to RPGs. Personnaly I hate it when secrets don't have at least an optionnal explanation, and when secrets are revealed in multiple different books. As long as they are not revealed to the Player.

 

[kristof65]

Personnaly I hate it when secrets don't have at least an optionnal explanation, and when secrets are revealed in multiple different books. As long as they are not revealed to the Player.

I just want to be clear, I think I know what you're saying

- If I were to publish an adventure about a derelict unknown alien starship for the PCs to discover and explore, you would be annoyed if I left the origin of the ship entirely up to the GM without at least giving some suggested ideas, right?

- If I were to publish a setting that had a big secret at it's core, you'd be annoyed if the details of the secret were dished out over several books, right?

 

[Dave Chase]

Yeah, thats pretty darn close to what I would be annoyed at too.

Like the Ancients. Really kind of cool and the unknown. Knew that if you found a working object it would be neat, but if you showed it, everyone would want it, and the Imperium would want to know where you got it.

Kind of a catch 22.

But when all the inforamtion came out about the Ancients, Yes, I bought it and read it. Then never used the Ancients again. Kind of boring, no intrigue. And that is as a GM and player.

I like game supplements that give you cool adventures, concepts and stories. Then has a appendix that tells you different ways you can decide how to incorporate them into your game.

But that might just be me.

Dave Chase

 

[Pyromancer]

My first Traveller adventure was "Annic Nova". No Ancients, and it was so mysterious that to this day I don't know what was actually going on there and what happened.

 

[kristof65]

My first Traveller adventure was "Annic Nova". No Ancients, and it was so mysterious that to this day I don't know what was actually going on there and what happened.

Is that a good or bad thing?

 

[BP]

Maybe he does know, but he just can't tell.


They're watching...

 

[klingsor]

I must admit I like mysteries (in RPGs) that have an explanation. The players don't have to learn it but it is nice if there is one for the GM. He might also be able to build on it himself.

Things that do not have an explanation just seem a little bit cheesy, smacking of the bad old days of D. & D. Weird yes, but never wacky.

 

[BP]

For myself - if you are setting up a framework around a mystery then its expected you'll finish it with the explanation...
If the framework is based on mystery - then no.

Traveller is more hard SF by framework, so mystery (and fantasy) is up to the Referee - everything else should have an answer within 'plausibly believability'.

 

[kristof65]

I must admit I like mysteries (in RPGs) that have an explanation. The players don't have to learn it but it is nice if there is one for the GM. He might also be able to build on it himself.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the "76 Patrons" approach - that is, there are several different suggested explainations for each mystery, leaving the GM to decide which one makes the most sense for his TU.

 

[EDG]

My problem with the Ancients is that (a) they're not really mysterious anymore, (b) they're still around and interfering with things (as shown by several adventures), (c) they're just pathologically stupid in several places (blowing up planets just to destroy a base? not using robots to start with instead of screwing around with the evolution of several races? Travelling hundreds of parsecs to find Earth and using races from that planet when there were loads of other habitable worlds between the SM and Earth?), and (d) they're just too common. And on a related note, Grandfather is clearly Marc Miller's "GM PC". Plus, "the Ancients showed up 300,000 years ago, and nobody else was around before that".

I'd like the Ancients to be tossed out and a whole load of ruins and artefacts left behind by ancient races that we know absolutely nothing about. Whenever the artifacts are found they should be major events, at least from an archeological perspective. And they shouldn't be functional (or at least, not controllable. I'm all for a Precursor warbot getting accidentally reactivated and wreaking havoc!).

Explanations are nice, but not necessary. Maybe explain the situation behind the ruin or artifact, but still leave some mysteries to be explored later.

 

[Dave Chase]

I concur with EDG in most parts. But instead of throwing the Ancients out we did something different.

He was not the first Ancient, there are others. Some are just older races and a few are just like him in design but not attitude, not the same race and such.

The reason that the planets got blown up are along these two beliefs (in ATU concept.)

1) Grandfather visited these other races and they decided he was a threat, it is they who destroyed most of the planets and systems. Why, because they had most of the rest of the galaxy and just wanted Grandfather and his kids gone. Grandfather could not stand being the underdog and not in control and so created the story that he destroyed his own children. Egotistic he is. He hid and watched and learn the other ancient serects and is waiting until his new children reach the point that he can return the favor.
2) While Grandfather was away from his children, another race came through and took out the planets. (Leaning toward the Mechnoids style). When he came back, he could believe what happened, so he took to the offense and the war was actually between him and the alien race. Once again as above, he could not handle admitting he was wrong and not paying attention so with his Ego , he made up the story that he did it.

Just one of the ways we spinned the real Ancient story after the Ancients got published.

Dave Chase

 

[captainjack23]

My problem with the Ancients
[snip]

Explanations are nice, but not necessary. Maybe explain the situation behind the ruin or artifact, but still leave some mysteries to be explored later.

To be fair to the new players, there are other sides to this discussion. I agree that the "all about the ancients" supplement was likely just a fan service, and isn't my favorite resolution, but its unlikely that any explanation would have satisfied everyone, particularly those who already had ideas about what the solution should have been, or how the ancients should act.

I suspect that if they hadn't ever published a solution they would have been even more severely criticised for leaving it hanging. Still, its a cautionary example as regards how much info should be shown behind the curtain. Even in mystery literature, there is an enormous tension between those who like things spelled out to keep ahead of the developing solution, and those who like watching someone else figure it out. Given the nature of an RPG mystery, where one adds the population that wants to take the mystery and solve it themselves entirely, it's hardly surprising that this is also an issue here.

Unfortunately, much of the "ancients are stupid" problem applies to this; parts seem to have been intentionally left vague for GMs to customize, and keep the full solution from being available to players buying the book. It's an approach that makes for lousy half baked literature, but actually can be very useful in RPG design. The challenge is to not confuse the two, really; and as ever, not to conflate "I would have done it differently and don't like this" with "this is broken".

Still, since that particular supplement hasn't entered MGT yet, the ancients make a great, and classic sciFi trope for MGT campaigns. Plus, there is the very easy solution that even "secrets of the ancients" suggests in its subtext....why are we believing grandfather's story ?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Personally, I like the Babylon 5 approach to precursor races.

There are VERY old races (BILLIONS of years old) but they are so far ahead of us, that we are insects to them in comparison.

The OTU has ONE precursor race and it showed up 300,000 years ago. Don't buy it at all personally. The Ancients may be ONE of the precursor races, but they surely cannot be the ONLY one in the entire Galaxy. Also, in the last 13+ Billion years, hasn't ANYONE figured out how to fly between galaxies? Where are they?

Also the OTU is very vague about intermediate races. Races that explored within the last 300,000 years. Entire civilizations could have risen and fallen before the Vilani got into space. That hasn't been explored well either.

There is a lot that can be filled in around the Ancients without breaking the OTU setting. I am just not aware of anyone that has done it.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that really the whole concept of traveller is totally defined by the ancients. The brilliance of the idea that humanity finally struggled off earth to find that space was crawling with human beings already - and genetically linked to us is at its core.

Most mysteries should not be about ancient stuff - there are a million and one other ways to build them in. In traveller it doesn't have to be the "big impact" of an ancient site which creates interest, it is often little inconsistencies in the details which draw players in. The kinds of things which you would notice if you were there but are hard to envisage without good immersion. Why is it laid out like this....? Why isn't there an airlock where there should be one...? How did they get from here to there...? These can lead to shocking discoveries....

There are wars and imperial research and psionics and Zho intrusions and hive manipulations and politics and trade and corporate intrigue and vargr and pocket empires and corrupt nobles and Imperial secret service and ...scouts...etc

Part of what has always defined traveller to me was the "hard science" aspect. It is always assumed that there is a good explanation but it is not always understood at this time - just like real science.

Another dominant precept of Traveller to me is that Human beings remain pretty much the same while technology and science has expanded and transformed the environment in which they operate. The cold reality outside is larger and deeper, full of endless possibilities, but the internal life and motivations of characters is just as ever, we can relate to it directly. More than any other RPG, I can think "what would I do if I was in this situation?" and retain a sense of immersion. This needs the ancients to add mystery and value, but still with a plausible back story.

Ancients only get old if they are overused. Personally I never tire of them. There is very little which is really revealed in "secrets of the ancients" and there is plenty of scope for extensions/alterations of that material.

 

[EDG]

There is very little which is really revealed in "secrets of the ancients" and there is plenty of scope for extensions/alterations of that material.

IIRC, EVERYTHING about the Ancients was revealed in that "adventure" (I put it in quotes because it wasn't really an adventure, it was a railroad that the PCs were strapped into). And then the PCs were let go, with this setting-shaking knowledge.

And it really annoys me how everything is pinned on the Ancients - for a long-forgotten race they sure seem to have fiddled with every damn thing in the setting. They're not even a proper race, for crying out loud, it's just one psychotic mutant and his offspring playing god with the universe, and then the mutant got bored and killed his offspring and took out a few planets as collateral damage. And the race that they came from has conveniently forgotten all about them apparently.

I just loathe the way that they've been implemented in the setting. They're just a deus ex machina that can do anything, a convenient explanation for anything that doesn't make sense, and are too "magical" to fit in a science-fiction setting.

 

[kristof65]

There is very little which is really revealed in "secrets of the ancients" and there is plenty of scope for extensions/alterations of that material.

IIRC, EVERYTHING about the Ancients was revealed in that "adventure" (I put it in quotes because it wasn't really an adventure, it was a railroad that the PCs were strapped into). And then the PCs were let go, with this setting-shaking knowledge.

And it really annoys me how everything is pinned on the Ancients - for a long-forgotten race they sure seem to have fiddled with every damn thing in the setting. They're not even a proper race, for crying out loud, it's just one psychotic mutant and his offspring playing god with the universe, and then the mutant got bored and killed his offspring and took out a few planets as collateral damage. And the race that they came from has conveniently forgotten all about them apparently.

I just loathe the way that they've been implemented in the setting. They're just a deus ex machina that can do anything, a convenient explanation for anything that doesn't make sense, and are too "magical" to fit in a science-fiction setting.

Not every detail was explained in "Adventure" 12, certainly, but a base framework was laid - and that kind of ruined the Ancients for me as well.

I'd rather not derail the thread with talk of the OTUs Ancients, but what things people would like for an alternate TU. In the alternate setting I'm working on, I have what I call the Forerunners - they aren't one race, but a series of long dead races who came beforehand, most of whom left artifacts and sites. I'm curious as to how much detail people would want to see about these Forerunners and the sites/artifacts they left behind.

 

[Travellingdave]

IIRC, EVERYTHING about the Ancients was revealed in that "adventure"
SNIP
They're just a deus ex machina that can do anything, a convenient explanation for anything that doesn't make sense, and are too "magical" to fit in a science-fiction setting.

Yeah, I wasn't blown away by that adventure either ... so I don't treat it as gospel. In MTU, Grandfather was lying. He had his own reasons for this disinformation; mainly he didn't want these damn nosy monkeys looking for the other ancient races. I created several other precursor races, some predating Grandfather by eons. One race has rendered an entire quadrant devoid of organic life ... expeditions into that area are VERY hazardous, but the rumors of artifacts keep them coming anyway.

Yeah, the OTU as written is a bit limited in this regard, but it really isn't difficult to open it back up.

 

[captainjack23]

There is very little which is really revealed in "secrets of the ancients" and there is plenty of scope for extensions/alterations of that material.

IIRC, EVERYTHING about the Ancients was revealed in that "adventure" (I put it in quotes because it wasn't really an adventure, it was a railroad that the PCs were strapped into). And then the PCs were let go, with this setting-shaking knowledge.

And it really annoys me how everything is pinned on the Ancients - for a long-forgotten race they sure seem to have fiddled with every damn thing in the setting. They're not even a proper race, for crying out loud, it's just one psychotic mutant and his offspring playing god with the universe, and then the mutant got bored and killed his offspring and took out a few planets as collateral damage. And the race that they came from has conveniently forgotten all about them apparently.

I just loathe the way that they've been implemented in the setting. They're just a deus ex machina that can do anything, a convenient explanation for anything that doesn't make sense, and are too "magical" to fit in a science-fiction setting.

Just curious, have you actually read it recently ? I ask as this is one of the traveller products which has a lot of "commonly known" misconceptions attached to it.

But yes, critiques of a 30 year old adventure from the dawn of gaming and planetary science aside, you don't like the ancients; which no doubt makes the OTU unpalatable for you, that's plain. Even at the time, I was a bit burned out on VonDanekinesque SF tropes -but I've mellowed on this. Which, really is why lots of GMs (myself included) ignore it mostly based on the kind of real world situation where we go about out daily lives, but very very few of us worry about, say, why exactly a bunch of central asian farmers had a mutation and got new jobs following cattle around, and what that has to do with our classical heritage, politics and etc.

"Ancient astronauts ? Random point mutations ? Lactose tolerance ? Whatever. I have to deliver this package - which just broke open and....hey ! Some kind of computer thingie covered with eqyptian cartoon writing or something. Well, whatever. "

Really, its just one page of the traveller brief.