Move and fire ship activation

[katadder]

yeah imagine your drazi rolling around 15 init rolls per turn or more depending on game size.

 

[mollari_uk]

All ships would need to be rebalanced as using that now would make bigger ships even worse as they would always move last. The bigger ships would need a serious upgrade in power and defence in order to survive the onslaught of smaller ships that outmanover it. Even the 1 or 2 you beat on init can be the ones out the way that you can't get to.

If that was the case though I'd like the system. Big ships would be big lumbering hulks that weather the storm of smaller ships.

 

[sidewinder]

I just noticed that the Track that Target order doesnt cut the dice in half anymore. If you can get the order off if makes the move and fire thing pointless now.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Track That Target didn't halve the dice in 1.1 either.
As for the per-ship initiative, I agree that the version I gave above would be too much bookkeeping. To me though that just means that we should look for a way to implement the overall idea that doesn't have quite so much overhead.

One varient I do think would be worth trying isn't that different, but that would radically cut down on the bookkeeping is as follows:
Each ship has an initiative modifier. At the beginning of each turn, both players roll once for initiative, and each ship in their fleet uses that roll to work out their initiative. For example, say the EA player rolls a 5, and has a Hyperion at +2 and an Omega at +0. The Hyperion will have initiative 7 and the Omega will have initiative 5 for that turn.

This would pretty much reduce the bookkeeping down to something as simple as placing an initiative counter next to each ship - I expect that people will memorise their own ship's initiative modifiers in the same way as they memorise other stats like speed at present.
The main problem that I see for this change though would be that all ships of a given modifier would always move at the time time. Either all the White Stars would get unlucky or none of them would if we were to go back to my previous example.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Track That Target didn't halve the dice in 1.1 either.
As for the per-ship initiative, I agree that the version I gave above would be too much bookkeeping. To me though that just means that we should look for a way to implement the overall idea that doesn't have quite so much overhead.

One varient I do think would be worth trying isn't that different, but that would radically cut down on the bookkeeping is as follows:
Each ship has an initiative modifier. At the beginning of each turn, both players roll once for initiative, and each ship in their fleet uses that roll to work out their initiative. For example, say the EA player rolls a 5, and has a Hyperion at +2 and an Omega at +0. The Hyperion will have initiative 7 and the Omega will have initiative 5 for that turn.

This would pretty much reduce the bookkeeping down to something as simple as placing an initiative counter next to each ship - I expect that people will memorise their own ship's initiative modifiers in the same way as they memorise other stats like speed at present.
The main problem that I see for this change though would be that all ships of a given modifier would always move at the time time. Either all the White Stars would get unlucky or none of them would if we were to go back to my previous example.

even easier, just use speed as the mod. Initiative roll + speed = score. Ships are then moved in blocks of 6 (scores 0-6, 7-12, etc) taking turns as per normal.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I'm not sure I like that system though. It's possible to move fast but be unmanouverable. The Tethys, Hyperion and Olympus should all be much more manouverable than an Omega/Shadow Omega for example, and those are just example from within the same race.

 

[Banichi]

Drat, I didn't get to have the game yesterday. Work got all busy, and I couldn't get away.

The tactics employed aren't the issue, the issue is two rounds of firing with no comeback!

We are going to try again for the game this weekend. I might try the rule that the last ship you move in your turn can't be the first ship you move in the following turn. Does that sound too simplistic? (its been a long two days, the brains a bit frazzled) Not sure how it would work if one players fleet has been reduced to one ship though.

 

[tschuma]

If you are engaged with the enemy, why would you want to move you big ship last, this ship should move first since it move than likely has the most weapons and the ability to inflict the most damage at the begining of the turn to disrupt the enemy. This is what would bring bigger ships back into play. It might move last the first couple of turns, but once engaged, I am moving and firing first not last.

I think just the plain move and fire, no matter what is a great idea and our group is planning on trying this out next week.

Just my 2 cents.

tschuma

 

[l33tpenguin]

Rather than moving and firing at the same time, I think a 'slightly' better option would be to force players to fire in the same order they moved. Its a bit of bookkeeping, but more fair, since it is better to move last and to fire first. This adds a level of tactical desicion as you have to risk something to gain something.

 

[Banichi]

Wouldn't this lead back to the same initiative sinking/boresight, problems we have now?

 

[l33tpenguin]

Wouldn't this lead back to the same initiative sinking/boresight, problems we have now?

Yes... and no. Right now, it is best to move your your small ships first and fire your big ships first. You use your sinks to give your big guns the best possible shots. However, if those big guns are moved last, they are forced to fire last.

A possible combination of the full point move + order of fire might be an good solution.

Move ships 1 full point at a time. Moving a ship of a higher PL allows you to skip a movement.

Once all ships have been moved each player takes turns firing based on the FAP they were moved in.

Example:
5 point battle
Player 1 is EA, player 2 is ISA
Player 1
3x Omega
3x Hyperion Cruisers
2x Chronos

Player 2
1x Gunship
6x White Stars
5 Blue Stars

Player 1 moves 1 FAP of ships, and picks 1 hyperion and the 2 chronos.
Player 2 moves the 5 blue stars.
The second point is moved, an omega and 2 white stars
And so on until all 5 FAPs of ships have been moved

Now, when it comes to firing, they fire single ships at a time.
The first point moved fires first. The ISA player fires with a blue star, the EA with his hyperion, then another blue star, a chronos, a blue star, a chronos, then the rest of the blue stars.
Then they move onto the second point that moved.

Kind of like breaking a turn down into mini turns, each worth 1 FAP.

 

[Banichi]

Sorry dude, I'm not having a go at your idea, but I really don't see how it would solve the init/boresight issue. In your examples it is still a case of the small ships moving first, and if you lost initiative you could still miss out on being able to shoot with your omega at something sitting right in front of you because it moved 1 inch after you moved. Also what would happen if the EA player (for example) had a bad turn and lost a whole FAP. Wouldn't that render even more of his boresight ships impotant.

 

[tschuma]

Why is there a Boresight/ini problem with Move and Fire? You are more than likely to move your best ships first to maximize there fire, most races that have Boresight are their bigger ships. You will then move your weak/lower level ships last, if they are still around at the end of the turn. If I have an Omega and it can move and line up a boresight shot on an enemy ship and get multipe ships at other ships in multiple arcs, that ship is moving first. Hopefully if my dice are with me, some of the targeted ships will either not be there for the enemy to move, or to the point that they are no longer a threat.

It will bring a different tactical feel to the game that what is pllayed now.

Just my 2 cents

tschuma

 

[sidewinder]

Thats what I thought, but people started complaining about ships getting to fire for a couple rounds without taking fire in return. Doesnt that happen now though?

 

[Ripple]

The problem is not boresight/init sinking with Move and Fire, it's that ships that depend on maneuver can't no long avoid fire by careful placement in the movement phase.

The bore sight/initiative sink issue that folks are trying to fix is that ships of similar capability can't be engaged because of a ship halfway across the table. This does solve that, stay in front of an Omega and he'll shoot you.

But it introduces a whole new issue, maneuver based ships can no longer use their speed or turns to avoid being shot at all. You have to maneuver to not get shot two turns in advance, which given speeds and ranges makes things like a knife fight whitestar just a dead turkey.

Ripple

 

[Juzza]

The problem is not boresight/init sinking with Move and Fire, it's that ships that depend on maneuver can't no long avoid fire by careful placement in the movement phase.

The bore sight/initiative sink issue that folks are trying to fix is that ships of similar capability can't be engaged because of a ship halfway across the table. This does solve that, stay in front of an Omega and he'll shoot you.

But it introduces a whole new issue, maneuver based ships can no longer use their speed or turns to avoid being shot at all. You have to maneuver to not get shot two turns in advance, which given speeds and ranges makes things like a knife fight whitestar just a dead turkey.

Ripple

Move and fire makes the game a more of a gun fight, Where bigger guns will be the main player boresight or not.

I said at the start that fleets like the ISA will be taken down a peg or two. This rule would change whats broken and whats not.