Mongoose Traveller NPCs

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Not sure how this 5 term character with zero g 3 and no vacc suit (under MgT anyway, don't know about other flavours of Trav), that started this thread, was created, you would have to be very unlucky to get that, esp as you should have at least another 2 skills at 1 (or one skill at 2) and a number of skill 0, so there must have been more to that character. Most of the careers that allow you to get zero g are spacer careers, and you tend to get a vacc suit 0 as basic. Not saying that such an outcome is impossible, just extremely unlikely.

We tend to find that after events rolls, promotions, rank skill, connections and a skill package characters with 4 or 5 terms usually have at least 10 skill levels, sometimes as hight as 14 or 15 (if lucky!). Throw in 2 or 3 level 0 skills (typically some of the basic training ones will have been trained up) and you usually have quite a convincing character, though not always quite the one you imagined at the start (sometimes a good deal more interesting).

The only mildly annoying thing is when you don't qualify for your first career, or keep getting chucked out of every career you attempt, but thats life for some people (and characters!)

Egil

 

[77thPatron]

Not sure how this 5 term character with zero g 3 and no vacc suit (under MgT anyway, don't know about other flavours of Trav), that started this thread, was created, you would have to be very unlucky to get that, esp as you should have at least another 2 skills at 1 (or one skill at 2) and a number of skill 0, so there must have been more to that character. Most of the careers that allow you to get zero g are spacer careers, and you tend to get a vacc suit 0 as basic. Not saying that such an outcome is impossible, just extremely unlikely.

We tend to find that after events rolls, promotions, rank skill, connections and a skill package characters with 4 or 5 terms usually have at least 10 skill levels, sometimes as hight as 14 or 15 (if lucky!). Throw in 2 or 3 level 0 skills (typically some of the basic training ones will have been trained up) and you usually have quite a convincing character, though not always quite the one you imagined at the start (sometimes a good deal more interesting).

The only mildly annoying thing is when you don't qualify for your first career, or keep getting chucked out of every career you attempt, but thats life for some people (and characters!)

Egil

I wonder this too..

 

[opensent]

Star Marine... In the rules as written, Battle Dress does not equal Vacc Suit. And the Ref enforced that (another issue). So the character had Zero-G combat-3 and no vacc suit. A bit of common sense during the writing of the game would have fixed that issue.

 

[far-trader]

Star Marine... In the rules as written, Battle Dress does not equal Vacc Suit. And the Ref enforced that (another issue). So the character had Zero-G combat-3 and no vacc suit. A bit of common sense during the writing of the game would have fixed that issue.

Yeah, the Ref is another issue entirely. That is where "a bit of common sense" would have fixed the issue. As in there would have been no issue. While I don't see it explicitly stated in a quick search of the core rules, it is obvious from context that Battle Dress includes/equals Vacc-Suit skill.

For one thing, the Marine char gen has no Vacc-Suit skill at all, just Battle Dress. That seems blindingly obvious to me that Battle Dress subsumes Vacc-Suit skill (but I also have the benefit of several earlier rule sets learned where it is more explicitly stated that Battle Dress includes Vacc-Suit, even so it should be easily deduced from the rules as written, unless one presumes the rules as written are meant to be illogical).

For another, Battle Dress is described as being a Vacc-Suit, it's just armoured and has extra stuff (it's the "extra stuff" that makes the difference between it being a Vacc-Suit, or Combat Armor, and requires the extra training that is the skill Battle Dress).

This does not mean that having Vacc-Suit skill means you can use Battle Dress. It does mean though that having Battle Dress skill means you can use Vacc Suits (and Combat Armour of course, which requires either Vacc-Suit or Battle Dress skill to use, imo at least).

 

[opensent]

Star Marine... In the rules as written, Battle Dress does not equal Vacc Suit. And the Ref enforced that (another issue). So the character had Zero-G combat-3 and no vacc suit. A bit of common sense during the writing of the game would have fixed that issue.

Yeah, the Ref is another issue entirely. That is where "a bit of common sense" would have fixed the issue. As in there would have been no issue. While I don't see it explicitly stated in a quick search of the core rules, it is obvious from context that Battle Dress includes/equals Vacc-Suit skill.

For one thing, the Marine char gen has no Vacc-Suit skill at all, just Battle Dress. That seems blindingly obvious to me that Battle Dress subsumes Vacc-Suit skill (but I also have the benefit of several earlier rule sets learned where it is more explicitly stated that Battle Dress includes Vacc-Suit, even so it should be easily deduced from the rules as written, unless one presumes the rules as written are meant to be illogical).

For another, Battle Dress is described as being a Vacc-Suit, it's just armoured and has extra stuff (it's the "extra stuff" that makes the difference between it being a Vacc-Suit, or Combat Armor, and requires the extra training that is the skill Battle Dress).

This does not mean that having Vacc-Suit skill means you can use Battle Dress. It does mean though that having Battle Dress skill means you can use Vacc Suits (and Combat Armour of course, which requires either Vacc-Suit or Battle Dress skill to use, imo at least).

And yet MGT has released more than a dozen books for Traveller so far and while they have been content to revise Combat Armor to require no skill, nothing has been mentioned regarding Battle Dress and Vacc Suit skill.

Again, in the RAW, these two are separate skills and wearing a vacc suit competently requires vacc suit skill. There have been multiple chances to correct or clarify this in MGT cannon and it hasn't happened.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

opensent

This caught me out as well, in the errata for the core book it makes plain that combat armour requires a vacc suit skill.

Unfortunately the same error has been repeated in CSC.

I think allowing battledress skill users to use a vacc suit is pretty obvious.

However, here is a more interesting one. Would you need vacc suit 0 to use combat armour in a earth type atmosphere? You don't need the vacc suit elements of combat armours, so ............ what is the opinion of other GMs?

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Star Marine... In the rules as written, Battle Dress does not equal Vacc Suit. And the Ref enforced that (another issue). So the character had Zero-G combat-3 and no vacc suit. A bit of common sense during the writing of the game would have fixed that issue.

Oh, and get a new ref! You can argue that the author missed this when he wrote the rules, but sooner or later the ref has to make decisions, esp in Trav.

Egil

 

[rust]

Would you need vacc suit 0 to use combat armour in a earth type atmosphere? You don't need the vacc suit elements of combat armours, so ............ what is the opinion of other GMs?

In my settings I only distinguish between unpowered protection suits and
powered protection suits. Someone with the Powered Protection Suits skill
can also use unpowered suits, while someone with only the Unpowered
Protection Suits skill cannot use powered suits.

 

[far-trader]

However, here is a more interesting one. Would you need vacc suit 0 to use combat armour in a earth type atmosphere? You don't need the vacc suit elements of combat armours, so ............ what is the opinion of other GMs?

Egil

Well, I can see circumstances where it could lead to complications for the wearer. Unless they want to wear it without the helmet and risk the exposure. The helmet would seal the suit and without knowing how to manage the life support systems (aka Vacc-Suit skill) they could suffocate, experience too much O2, suffer heat stroke for not knowing how to manage the environment controls, etc. etc.

I'd be adding a point of temporary damage regularly and increasingly sooner, subject to becoming permanent if they didn't get a clue. I'd give them at most maybe 10 minutes before they became unconscious from one fault or another.

If they want to leave the helmet off then I'd reduce the severity and increase the time allowed. They'd still be suffering from environment control effects imo, just a little slower. And of course I'd reduce the effective armour value to represent not having the helmet.

The lesson to take from it being, get some basic orientation at least (Vacc-Suit 0) before trying to do it.

 

[rust]

Well, I can see circumstances where it could lead to complications for the wearer. Unless they want to wear it without the helmet and risk the exposure. The helmet would seal the suit and without knowing how to manage the life support systems (aka Vacc-Suit skill) they could suffocate, experience too much O2, suffer heat stroke for not knowing how to manage the environment controls, etc. etc.

I would not rule this out, but I think that in almost all cases the suit system
would be designed to operate the life support without requiring any input
from the person wearing the suit - he or she has lots of other things to do.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Great ideas, thanks.

I tend to think that often the wearer wants the protection of combat armour, not all the environmental controls (which, agreeing with Rust, I think would be pretty fool proof in a straight forward earth type atmosphere).

Additionally, I have never been keen on the encumberance fudge required to accomodate combat armour (i.e. worn armour doesn't count as weight), so, I suggest,

"If combat armour is to be used in earth type enviroment, the vacc suit elements are taken off, halfing the weight and allowing the suit to be used without any vacc suit skill. Will still count as a NBC suit, and also respirator/filters, goggles etc, but if you fall into the sea you will drown (i.e. no air supply). On the plus side you get all that armour protection, and still have enough encumberance free to pick up your favourite laser rifle"

Discuss

Egil

 

[rust]

I am not sure whether the suit would be likely to be designed in a way
that would make it possible to take the vacc suit elements off, because
this would require an additional layer of armour to cover the area whe-
re the vacc suit elements would otherwise be, and that would increase
the weight of the suit.

(Sorry, a bit difficult to explain what I mean in English, I hope it is clear
enough ... )

 

[far-trader]

Well, I can see circumstances where it could lead to complications for the wearer. Unless they want to wear it without the helmet and risk the exposure. The helmet would seal the suit and without knowing how to manage the life support systems (aka Vacc-Suit skill) they could suffocate, experience too much O2, suffer heat stroke for not knowing how to manage the environment controls, etc. etc.

I would not rule this out, but I think that in almost all cases the suit system
would be designed to operate the life support without requiring any input
from the person wearing the suit - he or she has lots of other things to do.

True, however I don't think you want, or want to rely too much upon, automated systems in a combat suit where the controls could be damaged by any number of attacks including area attacks designed specifically to take out electronics.

And before you say they'd be hardened against that, well yes, or maybe no. Depends on how much weight and expense* that will add to the overall, not forgetting to include the extra weight and expense of the automation in the first place.

* weight and expense of hardening would be no issue for Battle Dress, but other issues would be, like control of enhanced weapons and sensors taking precedence over routine operation (for a trained user) of basic life support issues.

For higher TL sure, for lower TL not so sure.

And of course the same would apply to regular Vacc-Suits. There'd be the basic lower TL models that require some training to use safely and comfortably, and higher TL models that pretty much tell you how to put them on and do all the rest for you. If you can afford them But, these Vacc-Suits would not fair well in combat, at least not the automated systems...

"Excuse me Dave, your heart rate and breathing are spiking, I've compensated the cooling and O2 but you have only <static> minut.. ut.. ut.. sub-processor error - wiring fault - automated system shutting down - engage manual control."

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I am not sure whether the suit would be likely to be designed in a way
that would make it possible to take the vacc suit elements off, because
this would require an additional layer of armour to cover the area whe-
re the vacc suit elements would otherwise be, and that would increase
the weight of the suit.

(Sorry, a bit difficult to explain what I mean in English, I hope it is clear
enough ... )

Clear enough, and a good point, thanks!

Perhaps I am going to have to go with two sets of combat armour, one as written, and requiring a vacc suit skill to operate, and one marginallly cheaper (the vacc suits bits are fairly cheap in comparison to the rest) and a good deal lighter, but only suitable for earth type environments (but with NBC protection etc)

Egil