Mongoose and ATU's

[Allensh]

One thing that could be interesting would be if Mongoose could publish alternate versions of the Original Traveller Universe, "what-if" scenarios that would get different ideas flowing but not neccesarly be "canon". The "what if Dulinor never assassinated the Emperor" idea probably belongs to Steve Jackson Games, so that one is probably out, but others might be possible.

Doug Berry, author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces and At Close Quarters, has come up with a very interesting Alternate Traveller Universe idea here:

http://gridlore.livejournal.com/1330708.html

This would have a lot more intrigue and opportunities for skullduggery than the standard OTU, and seems very interesting. I would love to see something like this.

Allen

 

[rust]

I could well imagine such ATU descriptions as PDFs or small booklets,
created by third parties under some license, somewhat like the Mono-
graphs published by Chaosium for their Basic Roleplaying System and
Call of Cthulhu, but I doubt that there would be enough of a market to
produce them as normal supplements.

 

[GypsyComet]

This sort of thing raises the usual licensing question, assuming that Mongoose wouldn't be interested in publishing such things.

Juts how far off of the OTU do you have to go before you are safely in OGL/SRD territory? How many of the OTU elements used together constitute "too close"?

 

[Allensh]

This sort of thing raises the usual licensing question, assuming that Mongoose wouldn't be interested in publishing such things.

Juts how far off of the OTU do you have to go before you are safely in OGL/SRD territory? How many of the OTU elements used together constitute "too close"?

It most likely would require changes to the license to be able to do something like this, or Mongoose publishing it themselves.

Would still be cool, though

Allen

 

[Jeff Hopper]

What if these ATU ideas were done solely in the Foreven Sector?

 

[Garuda]

I have problems getting my head around the OTU as it is. Throwing 'What if?' alternatives into the mix would just serve to confuse the hell out of people like me. :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

What if these ATU ideas were done solely in the Foreven Sector?

Isnt that the whole idea behind the Foreven Sector ?
It allows you to use the OTU details like say the IISS and still make changes to it BUT these changes are not offical and cant effect the established canon or OTU history (so no Hiver emperor for example).

The simple fact of using Foreven Sector in a product makes it an ATU as its not the OTU.

Rog.

 

[captainjack23]

What if these ATU ideas were done solely in the Foreven Sector?

Isnt that the whole idea behind the Foreven Sector ?
It allows you to use the OTU details like say the IISS and still make changes to it BUT these changes are not offical and cant effect the established canon or OTU history (so no Hiver emperor for example).

The simple fact of using Foreven Sector in a product makes it an ATU as its not the OTU.

Rog.

I'm willing to hear that I'm wrong, but how I understood the Foreven license was simply that all changes had to be in context of Foreven, would not change the OTU in any way. So, I'd think that somthing like:

"The hiver expansion into Forven was prompted by the inexplicable decision of the moot to confirm a Hiver as Emperor Gruffty I, following the equally inexplicable abdications of Strephon, Iphegenea, Lucan , Varian, and, even more puzzlingly, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish ."

would, despite being an atrocious travesty of gargantuan and hideous proportions*, be allowable.



* and wrong and broken and bad bad bad.

 

[rust]

"The hiver expansion into Forven was prompted by the inexplicable decision of the moot to confirm a Hiver as Emperor Gruffty I, following the equally inexplicable abdications of Strephon, Iphegenea, Lucan , Varian, and, even more puzzlingly, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish ."

Yep, the part about Varian really does not fit into an otherwise plausible
scenario, such an act by Varian could ruin the OTU canon.

 

[GypsyComet]

What if these ATU ideas were done solely in the Foreven Sector?

Some of them can work under that license, but ideas like Doug's are deep enough and affect the central workings of the Third Imperium enough that they can't be shunted off to Foreven easily and still work under the Foreven license.

Can a product start with Doug's summary of a bloodily feudal Imperium, then go on to detail these factions goings on in Foreven? Does that constitute an abuse of the Foreven License? It needs the changed context of the entire setting to work, even if it only goes into the *details* of intrigue between those factions in a foreign court somewhere in Foreven.

 

[EDG]

I'm willing to hear that I'm wrong, but how I understood the Foreven license was simply that all changes had to be in context of Foreven, would not change the OTU in any way. So, I'd think that somthing like:

"The hiver expansion into Forven was prompted by the inexplicable decision of the moot to confirm a Hiver as Emperor Gruffty I, following the equally inexplicable abdications of Strephon, Iphegenea, Lucan , Varian, and, even more puzzlingly, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish ."

would, despite being an atrocious travesty of gargantuan and hideous proportions*, be allowable.

* and wrong and broken and bad bad bad.

I was under the impression that all changes in Foreven had to stay in Foreven - so what you've just supposed is exactly what cannot be done, because it's stipulating changes outside of Foreven.

However, I find the current scheme so limiting for the OTU (or things derived from it) that I see little point in supporting it. Just being allowed to do things in Foreven is a fat lot of use if you really want to publish something set in Antares - I think one would be better off in that case saying "screw the commercial angle and supporting MGT" and just publish for free for an older version of the game via the FUP, instead of shoehorning things designed for other parts of the OTU into an obscure backwater sector.

 

[captainjack23]

I'm willing to hear that I'm wrong, but how I understood the Foreven license was simply that all changes had to be in context of Foreven, would not change the OTU in any way. So, I'd think that somthing like:

"The hiver expansion into Forven was prompted by the inexplicable decision of the moot to confirm a Hiver as Emperor Gruffty I, following the equally inexplicable abdications of Strephon, Iphegenea, Lucan , Varian, and, even more puzzlingly, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish ."

would, despite being an atrocious travesty of gargantuan and hideous proportions*, be allowable.

* and wrong and broken and bad bad bad.

I was under the impression that all changes in Foreven had to stay in Foreven - so what you've just supposed is exactly what cannot be done, because it's stipulating changes outside of Foreven.

Actually, that is the case. I decided to look it up.

2.  Original Traveller Universe material produced under this licence may only be made with direct respect to the Foreven Sector.  References to other sectors and areas of the Original Traveller Universe may be made, but only in direct relation to the Foreven Sector.

For example, you can produce material that describes what the Zhodani are doing within the Foreven Sector, but you cannot describe changes to the Zhodani central government.  You could describe someone as being born within District 268, but you cannot create a new planet or town within district 268 he hailed from.

This is best summarised as;

You are free to reference any Original Traveller Universe material you wish, and you may create new material based on this so long as the new material is set in the Foreven Sector.

You cannot produce anything that changes or creates Original Traveller Universe material outside of the Foreven Sector.

I could, in theory do this:

"The hiver expansion into Forven was supported by the deception plan that convinced the population that the moot had inexplicably decided to confirm a Hiver as Emperor Gruffty I, following the equally inexplicable abdications of Strephon, Iphegenea, Lucan , Varian, and, even more puzzlingly, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish ."

But, as Rust so astutely spotted and points out, it would still have that absurd part about Varian, and thus be completely unbelievable.

A semi-grey area might be using article 3 * to have the original situation but claim it is ONE MILLION YEARS in the future when the Hivers do run things....(openly, I mean), and thus not changing the OTU.....as it exists, now. Although, I sure would run that by Mongoose first.

In a lot of ways, it is a trust issue: That if an author is being reasonable, Mongoose will be reasonable.

As to the rest....well, I'm disappointed that it means that we won't be seeing your take on TNE in Foreven. But, I'd be careful with your plan, since its intent really does seem to be to avoid the license; and its not clear to me that the OTU is open game simply by claiming "this is made with/ for TNE rules". (Or CT, but I doubt you'll be doing that. ) . It certainly can't be a commercial property, which may limit it quite a bit.

*

3.  You are in no way restricted by the timeline of the Original Traveller Universe, and may produce Foreven Sector material set in any time period.

The intention of this is to allow people to be fairly wild in what they produce, if they so wish.  You can set Foreven a million years in the past, or a million years in the future, if you so wish.

 

[captainjack23]

What if these ATU ideas were done solely in the Foreven Sector?

Some of them can work under that license, but ideas like Doug's are deep enough and affect the central workings of the Third Imperium enough that they can't be shunted off to Foreven easily and still work under the Foreven license.

Can a product start with Doug's summary of a bloodily feudal Imperium, then go on to detail these factions goings on in Foreven? Does that constitute an abuse of the Foreven License? It needs the changed context of the entire setting to work, even if it only goes into the *details* of intrigue between those factions in a foreign court somewhere in Foreven.

Honestly, If its that radical a chage, rather than having to rebuild everything to fit the OTU, or justify it's alteration, why not just set the whole thing in foreven as a pocket empire in a period that the condition of the empire is irrelevent ? Or, to avoid all continuity baggage, make it it's own setting just using the OGL , and generic-ize what are obvious.

This is not a criticism of Doug's ideas, or anyones, but if the unspoken goal is to make a personal version of the OTU, and publish it as such, it ain't gonna happen.

Despite some complaints, the OGL is pretty damn generous, and so is the Foreven License; but it is set up to avoid screwing up an already somewhat improvised backstory, and to allow MWM to own appropriate intellectual rights -and for his license to be worth something.

So, I guess if you want to fix or rewrite the OTU it either has to be as a fan production, a licence negotiated with Marc, or a "generic SF Empire in space" supplement. You know, with a Federal Monarchy surrounded by honor bound snakeoid people, Charisma obsessed giant squid things, manipulative.....um....sentient puddles and Evil Space Hamsters that Kill anyone who refuses to eat SPACE ACORNS.

 

[EDG]

Actually, that is the case. I decided to look it up.

What you suggested seems to be the same as this though:

For example, you can produce material that describes what the Zhodani are doing within the Foreven Sector, but you cannot describe changes to the Zhodani central government.

That tells me that you can say that Gruffty I is the new ruler of Foreven sector, but you can't say that anything has happened to the Imperium (i.e. all the rulers abdicating) outside of that sector.

As to the rest....well, I'm disappointed that it means that we won't be seeing your take on TNE in Foreven. But, I'd be careful with your plan, since its intent really does seem to be to avoid the license; and its not clear to me that the OTU is open game simply by claiming "this is made with/ for TNE rules". (Or CT, but I doubt you'll be doing that. ) . It certainly can't be a commercial property, which may limit it quite a bit.

That's my point though - It can't be a commercial release, because it'd be releasable only under the FUP. But there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from writing up another sector from the Charted Space setting and releasing it for free under the FUP. There's no "getting around the license" involved here - in fact it's explicitly stated that if that's what you want to do, then this is how you'd do it.

Besides, personally I don't see any point in releasing anything in Foreven anyway - a sector that has had almost no previous relevance to the OTU at all (save for containing the homeworld of the Chamax, but let's face it that could just as well be located anywhere else). Why use Foreven when I could just make my own setting and release it under the OGL with hardly any license restrictions (or even just as its own product that has nothing to do with Traveller)?

I just can't see people being all that interested in a host of different Foreven sectors. I haven't even heard many people expressing an interest in doing them anyway. I can however see people being a lot more interested in releasing or playing in different SF universes put out under the Traveller OGL rules, and in OTU supplements released by Mongoose or Avenger. Foreven just seems like a damp squib to me.

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, that is the case. I decided to look it up.

What you suggested seems to be the same as this though:

For example, you can produce material that describes what the Zhodani are doing within the Foreven Sector, but you cannot describe changes to the Zhodani central government.

That tells me that you can say that Gruffty I is the new ruler of Foreven sector, but you can't say that anything has happened to the Imperium (i.e. all the rulers abdicating) outside of that sector.

yes, that was exactly my point. believe it or not, I was admitting that you had the right of it.

As to the rest....well, I'm disappointed that it means that we won't be seeing your take on TNE in Foreven. But, I'd be careful with your plan, since its intent really does seem to be to avoid the license; and its not clear to me that the OTU is open game simply by claiming "this is made with/ for TNE rules". (Or CT, but I doubt you'll be doing that. ) . It certainly can't be a commercial property, which may limit it quite a bit.

That's my point though - It can't be a commercial release, because it'd be releasable only under the FUP. But there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from writing up another sector from the Charted Space setting and releasing it for free under the FUP. There's no "getting around the license" involved here - in fact it's explicitly stated that if that's what you want to do, then this is how you'd do it.

FUP = fair use, correct ? Yes, exactly. One couldn't use old rules versions to justify a commercial OTU product, which I see now wasn't your goal.

Besides, personally I don't see any point in releasing anything in Foreven anyway - a sector that has had almost no previous relevance to the OTU at all (save for containing the homeworld of the Chamax, but let's face it that could just as well be located anywhere else). Why use Foreven when I could just make my own setting and release it under the OGL with hardly any license restrictions (or even just as its own product that has nothing to do with Traveller)?

I just can't see people being all that interested in a host of different Foreven sectors. I haven't even heard many people expressing an interest in doing them anyway. I can however see people being a lot more interested in releasing or playing in different SF universes put out under the Traveller OGL rules, and in OTU supplements released by Mongoose or Avenger. Foreven just seems like a damp squib to me.

Well, you're probably not alone in that. BUT, as we recall, lots of common sense predictions about MGT being a squib were also wrong: it would never succeed if they went ahead with.....retro covers, the art, the boring graphic design, the slavish rewriting of Ct, the failure to ditch the OTU, the failure to massively update it to [transhuman,nanotech] standards, the failure to not massively upgrade the [Social,computer,planetary,physics,cartographic] science , the failure to become completely generic.....etc etc.

And those were flat out wrong with regard to the squib part. So, we'll have to wait and see if Mongoose and Marc have blown it this time.