Minbari Federation Factbook...

[ShadowScout]

OK, I got it and glanced through the book...

Sheesh!

I like half and I hate half of it.

So let's skip the praise for the half I like and get straight to the major annoyances:

1 - "Shadow Souled" - alright, who had the bright idea to make "Minbari Drow"??? :wink: This idea is just soo wrong... and I have been annoyed by more then enough "minbari/elves" comparisons anyway... I really could have done without another one. Still, at least it's "loose" enough that I can ignore it when I GM...

2 - early Vorlon interference in Minbari history... - this also seems quite wrong for me, as for one it's just plain wrong that the Vorlons started their interference Then (we know fro Thirdspace that they have been doing it soo long that they had a swelled head because of showing up as "gods" as much as a million years before our time, and not just started in minbari times), for another acting That openly just doesn't fit with Vorlon MO as we saw it in the show. But it's still not too much of a problem, since it was all "long forgotten" so I can treat it as a rumor too - or as the exception to the rule of vorlons doing business...

3 - Minbari revolution against Vorlons... - Oh, my. Early particle weapons killing vorlons - seems unlikely, remembering how much troubles B5 security had with them (even after all that shooting it Still took Kosh -or his specter, depends how you see it- to finally take care of Ulkesh). Minbari adapting ancient vorlon tech to blow away their space station - seems completely ludicrous (hell, vorlon tech is Organic, and had been for at least a Million years -see TS-, and it's many thousands of years beyond what the Minbvari have even in B5 times. No way they could have tweaked with it, no more then ancient greek scholars could have pulled off a "McGyver" with modern electronics...). OK, 'nuff said. But still, for my own campaigns that problem will vanish once I redo some of the vorlon interference part... makes me wonder why August didn't?

4 - Valen's War.. - Here we get into the first major contradiction; since we Know from JMS storylined and approved stuff (mainly some mentionings in the show and that one comic) that the Minbari Did NOT fight the Shadows alone, and the Shadows did Not just let it go - the Minbari became the core of an alliance of races (need I mention Tak'cha?) and drove the Shadows back to and apperantly from (or at least deep into hiding at) Z'ha'dum, so decisively that they believed them destroyed forever (else Valen wouldn't have to make that prophecy about their return).

5 - the time after Valen's war... - you guys Really should have read the AoG history, and thought about why they made up what they made up. It makes no sense if the Minbari fought no "visible" war between Valen's and the EA conflict; they NEED to have at least fought one big one with the young Centauris as spectators, otherwise Londo's reaction in ItB comes from nowhere, and that is not a good thing to have in an BG. OK, the AoG "Wen'dan Horde" could have been dropped... but the Garmak war was vital to shape the perception of the Minbari in the Centauri's mind, as portrayed by the ItB movie and book (which has some thoughts of Londo on this matter too). Streib don't count as noone knows about them.

Ok, August, please take one freshly printed Minbari factbook, and hit yourself hard on your forehead! Twice! :wink: :lol:

OK, that were the major bad points, now the good stuff...

I loved the section about Minbari physiology! Great stuff! Lots of good things about psychology and culture too! The colony descriptions are nice (though someone used the same surface for Scorpigal and Tala - Bad graphix boy! No biscuit!). The vehicles section is almost as nice as the EA's - you just should have added some pictures With names, so that people who don't know AoG's stuff know which picture shows which ship (BtW, you didn't do the Troligan, which isn't a good idea since you have a great profile picture of it on p.102... And you changed the Neshatan's description, making it an very old hull, when it's apperance makes more sense with the AoG description of it being a very new hull, as it does look a bit like the WhiteStar... just a bit though.). The caste section is Great, the prestige classes nice, and the rest quite good.

OK, I'm off to read the book more throughly now...

 

[shadowbloodmoon]

Now how did you get a copy before my prize one (S&P1, tyvm) arrived? Odd...

Seriously though, I was wondering about the Shadow-souled myself. Then I remembered a certain couple of articles in a certain webzine about Shadow Minbari vessels. Then all was good...

 

[August]

People's milage may vary with this book, but I hope that everyone who reads it takes something away from it that they can use. As long as they can say that, I will be satisfied.

-August

 

[ShadowScout]

Now how did you get a copy before my prize one (S&P1, tyvm) arrived? Odd...

Well, I pre-ordered it at Mongoose. Had to, because even if one of the two stores we have in Vienna would have it, they're in Vienna and I'm not, And they are both notoriously slow about ordering; while I have found that Mongoose stuff ships pretty gast, at least as long as it's a small enough package to be shipped as "letter" (everything bigger then one big or two small books ships as "parcel" and that takes at least a few weeks more - of course, there IS a downside - if you order stuff together, you save a lot on P&P. So, you have the choice - order each book seperately for quickest delivery and pay a bit more, or order stuff together saving on money but waiting longer. A choice everyone has to make for himself... but for someone as B5-crazed as me it was no choice at all...)

People's milage may vary with this book, but I hope that everyone who reads it takes something away from it that they can use. As long as they can say that, I will be satisfied.

Then be.
Even though I have some points I dislike, I found more then enough in it I can use that I not only find I got my money's worth, I also can with good conscience advise everyone to go out and buy it at first sight! Then read it, and join us here discussing those and other points! :wink:

 

[frobisher]

I've not got it yet (oooh you lucky bugger Roman...) so can't make too many comments...

1 - "Shadow Souled" - alright, who had the bright idea to make "Minbari Drow"??? :wink: This idea is just soo wrong... and I have been annoyed by more then enough "minbari/elves" comparisons anyway... I really could have done without another one. Still, at least it's "loose" enough that I can ignore it when I GM...

I don't know - It was a Minbari that tried to assassinate Kosh, using a poison that had been sourced from from out on the rim. He was assisted by a Psi Corps sleeper agent (a program instituted using Shadow Technology). Said Minbari also knew some of the truth about Sinclair and was still willing for him to take the fall.

At the very least, I'd say this was an individual "touched by darkness", and the Windswords also sheltered Ja'Dur which might hint at a Shadow connection there.

 

[Garibaldi2257]

As far as we know, the Dilgar had no connection to the shadows...

 

[ShadowScout]

I don't know - It was a Minbari that tried to assassinate Kosh, using a poison that had been sourced from from out on the rim.

Centauri space actually IIRC. His girlfriend was said to have brought it... and that connection was the tie-in G'Kar wanted to spread some blame at the Centauri, to get the Narns into an alliance with the Minbari or Vorlons against the Centauri (his enemies) and the EA (his minbari collaboratoers enemies) - that's why he did his part after all!

He was assisted by a Psi Corps sleeper agent (a program instituted using Shadow Technology).

Not really, at least not that we know of. Remember, the sleeper was Talia, who came on board After the Kosh incident. Back then it was laurel Takashima who did the dirty one - and there was no real indication she was part of the psi corps program (after all, if JMS used That for this character, it makes little sense that it was the same for that character too - just like not every centauri has a keeper after 2261...). I see no reason why Takashima might not have had her own (or someone elses) reasons for assisting that Minbari... Hey, I know she was supposed to be the sleeper, but that got canned after all when she left before the show really started, so her intended parts got divided between Garibaldi's aide (the traitor) and Talia ("control"), which leaves us with a plot-line vacuum here... for all we have from that one apperance only, the acces code the minbari used could have been bought and she be completely innocent!

Said Minbari also knew some of the truth about Sinclair and was still willing for him to take the fall.

Unknown. He knew some piece of the truth, sure, - that Sinclair had been brought abourd the Gray Sharlin for 24 hours, and that something happened there with him that convinced the Grey Council to surrender. No indication he knew what... and no need, as the above mentioned stuff would be enough for him to blame Sinclair and want to see him punished and discredited...

At the very least, I'd say this was an individual "touched by darkness", and the Windswords also sheltered Ja'Dur which might hint at a Shadow connection there.

Every soul carries a shadow. Everyone has his own darkness inside him - no need for the Shadows to be pulling All the strings. (and it gets kinda silly if they do - along the path of certain kids shows where one villain is responsible for every trouble the heros face week after week after week... not knowing who's behind this and/or that is what makes B5 such fun!)

As far as we know, the Dilgar had no connection to the shadows...

Yees... in 2230, the time of the Dilgar war, the Shadows were still in hibernation, and just has some flunkies "minding the store" at Z'ha'dum.

However... it has been theorized that in an alternate universe some part of the Dilgar race might have survived and would return as shadow-minions three decades later (see the "The Final Battle" scenario in AoG's "Showdowns-4", the alternate outcome in case the dilgar win enough of the sub-battles...).
I happen to know some fanboys have already done a bit about this idea, and some others are working on a big B5W fan-made supplement running with that story they hope to finally get done early next year after numerous RealLife-induced delays... but shhh, don't tell anyone I wrote that! :wink:

 

[frobisher]

I don't know - It was a Minbari that tried to assassinate Kosh, using a poison that had been sourced from from out on the rim.

Centauri space actually IIRC. His girlfriend was said to have brought it... and that connection was the tie-in G'Kar wanted to spread some blame at the Centauri, to get the Narns into an alliance with the Minbari or Vorlons against the Centauri (his enemies) and the EA (his minbari collaboratoers enemies) - that's why he did his part after all!

Dr Kyle identified it as an exotic poison coming from sectors near the Rim though, regardless of how it came in.

However, the knowledge that this poison would work on a Vorlon could only have one source...

Hey, I know she was supposed to be the sleeper, but that got canned after all when she left before the show really started, so her intended parts got divided between Garibaldi's aide (the traitor) and Talia ("control"), which leaves us with a plot-line vacuum here... for all we have from that one apperance only, the acces code the minbari used could have been bought and she be completely innocent!

Except it used a palm print

 

[shadowbloodmoon]

and today I find out why.... They sent me OGL Cybernet instead... That's okay though I was planning on getting this one too. From the first few minutes of flipping Cybernet looks good too.. Lots of guns and lots of chrome...

 

[Chobbly]

OK, I got it and glanced through the book...
1 - "Shadow Souled" - alright, who had the bright idea to make "Minbari Drow"??? :wink: This idea is just soo wrong... and I have been annoyed by more then enough "minbari/elves" comparisons anyway... I really could have done without another one. Still, at least it's "loose" enough that I can ignore it when I GM...

I understand what you mean - when I was going to do a B5 campaign a few years ago, I was tempted to found a group of Minbari that had embraced the concepts of the warrior caste to fully, and gone beyond what Valen said, and ended up serving the Shadows. I know what you mean about the Drow thing though.

3 - Minbari revolution against Vorlons... - Oh, my. Early particle weapons killing vorlons - seems unlikely, remembering how much troubles B5 security had with them (even after all that shooting it Still took Kosh -or his specter, depends how you see it- to finally take care of Ulkesh). Minbari adapting ancient vorlon tech to blow away their space station - seems completely ludicrous (hell, vorlon tech is Organic, and had been for at least a Million years -see TS-, and it's many thousands of years beyond what the Minbvari have even in B5 times. No way they could have tweaked with it, no more then ancient greek scholars could have pulled off a "McGyver" with modern electronics...). OK, 'nuff said. But still, for my own campaigns that problem will vanish once I redo some of the vorlon interference part... makes me wonder why August didn't?

Eeekk!!! I'll have to have a read through this bit myself when I get the book.

4 - Valen's War.. - Here we get into the first major contradiction; since we Know from JMS storylined and approved stuff (mainly some mentionings in the show and that one comic) that the Minbari Did NOT fight the Shadows alone, and the Shadows did Not just let it go - the Minbari became the core of an alliance of races (need I mention Tak'cha?) and drove the Shadows back to and apperantly from (or at least deep into hiding at) Z'ha'dum, so decisively that they believed them destroyed forever (else Valen wouldn't have to make that prophecy about their return).

This is where we get into what is Canon, and what is not. The TV show is canon. The TV movies are canon. Crusade and Legend of the Rangers are canon. The book 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' is canon. The book 'The Shadow Within' is 90% canon.

Of course, is it possible that the Minbari... err... don't want anyone else to take the credit for working against the Shadows? It might interfere with how others perceive Valen. The Minbari might have decided that as they were sent away, the Tak'Cha would never be mentioned again. Did Delenn have any knowledge of them specifically? I don't think so, IIRC.

Thanks for the post - nice to get a bit of a 'heads up' about what is coming...


Chobbly

 

[ShadowScout]

I know what you mean about the Drow thing though.

You will, once you read about their history and especially their apperance! :wink:

 

[ShadowScout]

Dr Kyle identified it as an exotic poison coming from sectors near the Rim though, regardless of how it came in.
However, the knowledge that this poison would work on a Vorlon could only have one source...

Hmmm... I have now rewatched "The Gathering"... nowhere does Dr.Kyle mention the rim - he said it came from a planet in the damocles (or something sounding like that) sector, which Carolyn passed through on her way to B5. I also know now where I got my impression - because of her talking about doing business with Centauri, I presumed that wherever she came from, it was centauri space, thus I thought the poison came from centauri space.

Seems we were both not quite right, yet not completely wrong either  :wink:  :P

As for the info on which poison might affect Vorlons... possible, but unlikely. Remember, while the Shadows certainly were already awake at this time (though only barely), they didn't send out agents before 2258 (as Morden's visit in "Signs & Portents" did have a "first scouting" kind of feel...), and they'd be especially careful about the Minbari...
More likely the Minbari choose a poison that affected a Really wide range of specimens, and hoped for the best. Or made some assumptions from the atmospheric mix the Minbari did for Ulkesh at the Vorlon embassy in Yedor, and choose a poison that would affect the biochemical reactions one could theorize for beings breathing that atmosphere.

Of course, all this is brainstorming, the truth probably is that JMS changed his mind later on in regard to the Vorlons, as in S-4 they are revealed as a being unlikely to be affected by poison - I often asked myself why Sheridan didnd't try the poison from Kosh's assassination attempt on Ulkesh once they peeled him out of his suit... because all they did then was pretty ineffective up to the point where Kosh's ghost came out of Sheridan to enter the fray... so mayne Kosh wasn't in danger from the poison in 2257 at all, and was just playacting to see what would happen (that's the assumption I prefer most, for several other reasons too).

Only the great maker knows (and maybe even he didn't yet think it through  :wink: )

[quote]Except it used a palm print [/quote][/quote]
Which has been foiled in present-day films and series soo often that by the 23rd century they certainly have even more ways to fool such a scanner.
I'm not saying it wasn't, just that JMS later abandoned that plotline, and diveded it between two other characters, so it'd be doubtful to assign the whole original plotline to Cmdr Takashima in light of the current, whole series BG.

 

[frobisher]

Hmmm... I have now rewatched "The Gathering"... nowhere does Dr.Kyle mention the rim - he said it came from a planet in the damocles (or something sounding like that) sector, which Carolyn passed through on her way to B5. I also know now where I got my impression - because of her talking about doing business with Centauri, I presumed that wherever she came from, it was centauri space, thus I thought the poison came from centauri space.

Seems we were both not quite right, yet not completely wrong either :wink:

Now you mention it, some of the threads of where I got the information from are coming back into place. I'm pretty certain (finding the quote may be tricky...) jms made a statement in the past or it was mentioned in the show that the Damocles sector was out on the Rim. Can't find that for now, but the feeling is there nagging away at me...

As for the info on which poison might affect Vorlons... possible, but unlikely. Remember, while the Shadows certainly were already awake at this time (though only barely), they didn't send out agents before 2258 (as Morden's visit in "Signs & Portents" did have a "first scouting" kind of feel...), and they'd be especially careful about the Minbari...
More likely the Minbari choose a poison that affected a Really wide range of specimens, and hoped for the best. Or made some assumptions from the atmospheric mix the Minbari did for Ulkesh at the Vorlon embassy in Yedor, and choose a poison that would affect the biochemical reactions one could theorize for beings breathing that atmosphere.

Of course, all this is brainstorming, the truth probably is that JMS changed his mind later on in regard to the Vorlons, as in S-4 they are revealed as a being unlikely to be affected by poison - I often asked myself why Sheridan didnd't try the poison from Kosh's assassination attempt on Ulkesh once they peeled him out of his suit... because all they did then was pretty ineffective up to the point where Kosh's ghost came out of Sheridan to enter the fray... so mayne Kosh wasn't in danger from the poison in 2257 at all, and was just playacting to see what would happen (that's the assumption I prefer most, for several other reasons too).

Only the great maker knows (and maybe even he didn't yet think it through :wink: )

I just managed to find this on my CIX (basically a conferencing system/ISP in the UK who I've been with for twelve years or so) message base (the system uses an offline reader which harks back to the days when dial up access was really pricy in the UK...) when trying to find teh source of the poison...

The babylon5 conference on CIX had some very diligent peeps who'd compiled jms' postings from usenet and Compuserve to save the rest of us the hassle of the signal to noise ration in the former and the expense of the later.

Anyway... I'll reproduce these verbatim

****************************************************************************
Voices of Authority
****************************************************************************
SFRT II RoundTable
Category 18,  Topic 2
Message 507       Sun Mar 17, 1996
STRACZYNSKI [Joe]            at 06:22 EST
 
     I hadn't initially planned to show that much of the Walkers, but as I got
deep into the episode, I spent a lot of time dealing with other stuff, and
needed to shorthand a First Ones race, so figured it was better to go with
something already established, so I could put in the time elsewhere, and use
my notes on the Walkers that I had on hand anyway.  (In time it would've come
out in any event.) 

     Kosh was poisoned in just the way shown: he trusted Sinclair enough to
reveal a portion of himself; the assassin slapped a skin tab to his form (he
is physical, remember, whatever they may want us to see), and the rest
followed.  Not much of a mystery; it's pretty straightforward.  

                                                                     jms


From Compuserve
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I just viewed Falling Towards Apotheosis (sp?) and I've got a question about
Kosh.

It has been a long time since I saw The Gathering, but as I recall a Minbari
warrior, disguised as Commander Sinclair, met Kosh and poisoned him by
placing a pad on his "hand".  After seeing FTA, and what I assume to be the
true physical nature of the Vorlons, how could the events in The Gathering
have happened?  What was on that skin tab that did so much damage to Kosh?





=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: jmsatb5@aol.com
Lines: 12

Remember, they do have a certain physicality about them, even in that
form, and the nature of the poison was such that it would affect that kind
of life form using a crystalline base (note in the pilot the screen reads
analyzing crystallne structure, and you filter light or refract or distort
it using a crystalline structure).


 jms



****************************************************************************
 #: 31843 S4/Seas. 1-4 SPOILERS
    01-May-98  15:33:13
Sb: #< Kosh Poison>
Fm: WILL CARAWAY

Joe,

        I guess maybe I'm a little on the thick side, but no matter how many 
times I watch the Gathering I just can't answer one question.  Was Kosh 
actually poisoned or did he just fake it for the natives?

        Regards,

        Will

 #: 31950 S4/Seas. 1-4 SPOILERS
    02-May-98  19:56:01
Sb: #31843-< Kosh Poison>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI

      No, he wasn't faking it.  Understand that their appearance as a being of 
light is only how they want to appear; they are life forms much the same as 
many others, and can be poisoned if one knows the right combination of 
substances.

                                                                    jms

Basically, it looks like the physical Vorlon is there, and is necessary as a container-body for the energy portion/soul that can be split off which presumably needs a physical body to reside in for long term survival.

Needless to say, some of that is suppostion...

 

[Tallgeese]

After the beautiful Earth Alliance sourcebook, I thought that the editing and image problems from earlier publications were being addressed.

Unfortunately, some of these problems have come back, with the Minbari sourcebook:

*Pixillated graphics (such as the insignia on p. 63 and 64).

*Pixillated CGIs (such as the image of Yedor, p.135, and the White Stars on p. 158).

*Worst of all, two different planets, side by side, with identical terrain maps (pp. 122-123). Since different cities were added to each map, and the maps were placed side by side in the book, how was this error not noticed?

So far, I have spent $140 on this product line. I do that because I love B5. I took a pass on the campaign book (#2 in the Mongoose B5 series), because of its graphics problems. I really want to like these products. But at $35 a pop for the "races" books, and with errors such as happened with the maps, I really wonder where the line is going, and what steps are being taken to improve quality.

JET

 

[Anonymous]

I have some minor annoyences with the book as well. Primarly it falls with the stats of the White Star. I see that it had two minor mistakes in its stats. It is clearly shown on the TV show that it has Pivital Thrusters, and also I have this minor feeling that is acc/dec shoulb be increase to by one. Although I am not so dead set on the speed issue as of yet.

Rest of the book I find to be nearly perfect as I have read it. There are some minor things here and there but mostly all good.

I also Like the idea of the Shadow Souled, although something to be used very carefully.

 

[Enlightened Bystander]

If you read Matt's look through of the book in the General forum, you'll see that the two planets are supposed to be the same for some as yet unknown reason

 

[Tallgeese]

So someone purchasing the book needs to read the forums to correctly (re) interpret apparent errors in the book?

That just makes the book incomplete.

If things like this aren't errors, but rather added value, then Mongoose needs to add the value. They should also note in the text (and not just on a forum) that not everything is as it seems, and direct readers to a website where there is additional content.

That is what Last Unicorn did with the ICON links in their Star Trek products.

Otherwise, it just looks like a bad editing error.

JET

 

[August]

Gee, Tallgeese. If we did that, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

Seriously though, I accept full blame for the map mistake, although it is not a map mistake. The problem came in a paragraph that somehow did not get into the final version of the book. The planets are alike because one of them was settled during the earliest parts of the Minbari's push into space. When the second was found, it was a wonderfully stable world and an excellent prospect for their still experiemntal terraforming technologies.

The Minbari tried to shape the world into as close a duplicate of the first world as they could as an experiment. It seemed to go well until they actually began settling it and doing deeper geological surveys. That's when they discovered how terribly unstable they has rendered the crust and mantle in places.

Because of this, the twin planets remain a constant reminder to the Minbari to leave planets to their own development. To date, the incredibel terraforming technology they used has lain dormant- never to be used again.


You are correct, though; the book is incomplete in that regard and it is entirely my fault,
-August

 

[ShadowScout]

Interesting idea, August... nicely thought up... but done wrongly I fear.

This is a lot more then bioforming (yees, "bioforming" - after all terraforming is a too human term that may be offensive to alien races :wink: and we wouldn't want to sound racist, would we, not even in regard to races that are fictional ) - successfully bioforming those two worlds would result in completely different shaped maps, but with the exact same colors, as those planets now have the same climate, weather, temperature, maybe even water percentage.
To get the topographical maps to look the same you need massive engineering to reshape the Whole Surface of one of those planets. Could be done, sure, but would be a millenia-project for anyone but first ones...

IMO it really would have been better to just do it as two maps in the same color sceme but different structure, make the relevant planetary values the same, and include that part about the bioforming...

Maybe as an errata? Maybe in "Signs & Portents"?

 

[August]

ShadowScout,

Is it precisely necessary to be that particular about everything? I stand by my answer and will continue to do so. It was good enough for our playtesters, it was good enough for our editors, it was good enough for JMS, and it should be good enough for 90% of the gamers who will pick up the book and enjoy it for the wealth of information it provides.

Without trying to sound like a conceit, Minbari is very solid book with a remarkable amount of game-related and race-related information. If you simply must deliniate everything you find in the book to be wrong as point by point paragraphs, that is certainly your right and one you seem to consider practically a mandate. I applaud your thoroughness, but question your desire to bother praising a good job when you would much rather draw circles and arrows around a bad one.

As for your bioforming versus terraforming, that is just plain nitpicking. Perhaps you were trying to be humourous considering arguments that are raging elsewhere on the board, so I'll let this one go, but please.

You certainly cannot say that "To get the topographical maps to look the same you need massive engineering to reshape the Whole Surface of one of those planets. Could be done, sure, but would be a millenia-project for anyone but first ones..." when it was never covered in any project, canon resource, or online format that I could find.

Just because you feel the bioforming would have been too massive or time consuming for any younger race does not make it so. They could easily have adapted some of their gifts from the Vorlons in their earlier history or simply taken a 'quantum leap' forward in bioplanetary engineering.

Please forgive my candor and tone, but to have you simply state that my work was 'wrong' when nothing in the source material disputes me is more than a little galling.

I greatly respect your opinion here and under other circumstances I agree with your obviously B5-phile understanding and insight into the topic, but you are not the only one who can be right from time to time.

Respectfully,
-August