Military vehicles--G/fighter

apoc527

Mongoose
Ummm...I'm trying to puzzle this one out.

TL12 G/fighter top speed of 1959 kph. Agility +2 DM is nice, I'll grant that. And 7 armor isn't bad. The 12mm light gauss cannon is odd--think they'd have gone with a machinegun.

Compare to TL8 jet fighter though. 3574 kph max speed. +2 DM Agility. 20 points of armor (that can't be right...).

The G/fighter is half the size, which I suppose is nice, but still--maybe gravitic drives of Traveller just aren't that awesome?

Seems like you could have done better than 2000 kph though.

Thoughts?
 
Can a TL12 G-fighter be devised that beats the TL8 jet hands down?

"Wings" is turning out to be faster than grav for me... this is what I could cook up:

Lt Winged Combat Flyer-12
vol: 5t
spd: 3000 kph
AV: 16

Just barely enough room for the pilot...
 
The G - Fighter can hover outside the enemy position's weapons range and shower it with a steady stream of gauss fire. A squadron of them can really hail it down u[pn the poor enemy. The TL 8 fighter can only attack on the move.

In dogfights, it looks like the TL 8 fighter would quickly gain air superiority in atmo, but the G-fighter can still ascend above the TL 8 fighter's maximum operational height and rain down gauss fire upon it.
 
Haven't got vehicles yet (that reminds me, must go onto DTRPG next), but I may actually like this - grav not as the be-all and end-all of future transportation? :)
 
True.

Hells, even the early TL 5 biplanes in Civilian Vehicles could make an impressive dogfighting scenario, with pilots wearing nought but fur - lined leather jackets, leather skull caps, scarves and goggles dodging each other in and out of freezing puffs of cumulus cloud while artillery rounds scour the ground half a mile below ...
 
Actually that an interesting thing - consider that modern anti-aircraft missiles might be largely ineffective against WWI planes (heat seekers would have a hard time - and missiles would tear right through if they didn't hit the engine). Multi-compartment blimps would be another low-tech response to high-tech missiles.

(Of course, its another story if one includes AA guns - but since they are a lot less effective against modern airforce, they may not be on the field.)

Just as reflect type armour and flak jackets wouldn't likely fair well against cannons.

Sometimes, disparate tech can give advantages to the more primitive side - in specific situations. I.e. jets may out fly and out fight the G/Fighters - but not if the G/Fighter can exceed their altitude ceiling.

Not to mention on a low oxygen or vacumm world, high gravity world, or in an extremely dense atmo, or one that is composed of highly volatile gases.
 
'Course, you could go for a hybrid fighter jet with grav-assist to allow it to turn on a centicredit coin and allow it to carry enough firepower to turn Mount Everest into a car park ...
 
Here could be one reason why, and it appears to be something of an anomaly.

Each cubic metre of Turbine-8 outputs 26 power and weighs 90 kg per cubic metre. However, each cubic metre of Fusion-12 weighs 150 kg per cubic metre and outputs only 24 power.

Surely with fusion it ought to be more like 2400 per cubic metre at that TL?

Otherwise you could have two vehicles with identical stats - super streamlined hulls, advanced composites, same armour, twin forward-mounted gatling lasers, identical comm systems, crew positions, airflow devices, excellent components and performance tuning - the only difference being that one is running on a Turbine-8 and the other a Fusion-12 with identical cubic metre capacity ... and the TL-8 fighter will still pull a higher power-to-weight ration and therefore a faster cruising speed / top speed than the fusion-driven grav vehicle.

And that's not right, is it, when you consider that the fusion drive is fuelled by a nuclear process?
 
alex_greene said:
And that's not right, is it, when you consider that the fusion drive is fuelled by a nuclear process?
It would probably depend a lot on the volume and weight of the radiation
shielding required by a fusion power plant, but not by a jet engine.

Unless you assume some kind of "handwavium" at high technology le-
vels, the shielding could take quite some volume, and thereby reduce
the power output per cubic meter of the engine.

If I remember it right, this was one of the problems that prevented the
construction of fission powered strategic bombers in the real world, the
necessary radiation shielding would have made the otherwise quite im-
pressive "atomic bombers" too heavy.
 
rust said:
alex_greene said:
And that's not right, is it, when you consider that the fusion drive is fuelled by a nuclear process?
It would probably depend a lot on the volume and weight of the radiation
shielding required by a fusion power plant, but not by a jet engine.

Unless you assume some kind of "handwavium" at high technology le-
vels, the shielding could take quite some volume, and thereby reduce
the power output per cubic meter of the engine.

If I remember it right, this was one of the problems that prevented the
construction of fission powered strategic bombers in the real world, the
necessary radiation shielding would have made the otherwise quite im-
pressive "atomic bombers" too heavy.
Still and all, shouldn't the power output be greater than that of a chemical turbine nonetheless? Maybe not in the range of 2400 / 24, but considerably more regardless?
 
alex_greene said:
Still and all, shouldn't the power output be greater than that of a chemical turbine nonetheless? Maybe not in the range of 2400 / 24, but considerably more regardless?
Yes, most probably, because otherwise there seems to be a contradiction
between the stats of a small space craft designed with High Guard and a
grav fighter designed with one of the Vehicles supplements.

At least I do not see any convincing reason why a space fighter with a
fusion power plant and a maneuver drive that reaches 6 G and more
should be slower than its streamlining would theoretically allow in an at-
mosphere, and since the maneuver drive is usually described as a kind
of gravitic drive, something very similar should be true for a high TL
G-fighter.
 
Don't know the design rules - but does the fusion power plant vs. jet have an advantage in range/fuel?

(Just a technical note: Fusion wouldn't genreally require the shielding of a Fission reactor)
 
BP said:
Don't know the design rules - but does the fusion power plant vs. jet have an advantage in range/fuel?

(Just a technical note: Fusion wouldn't genreally require the shielding of a Fission reactor)

depends... the TL10 Jet Fighter has 3 hours of operation nearly 12000 km range (one way) the G/Fighter has 8 hours of operation nearly 9000km range, so in terms of loiter time it is better to have the Grav/Fighter in terms of range better to have the Jet.

the G/Fighter al;so has 1/3rd the volume of the Jet, meaning you could have more of them in the hanger, though the G fighter costs 1/3rd more. The G/Fighter has a slightly lighter weapons load in terms of missiles but has a laser (8d6) for ACM vs the VRF Guass cannon (5d6AP).

The killer will be the armour the G Fighter has 6 (11 vs lasers) the Jet Fighter has 30!

my conclusion the Jet Fighter will EAT the G/fighter in the BVR game, ACM (WVR) is likely to go to the G/Fighter. but the Jet will be able to disengage if it starts getting to hairy...
 
Fit it with a TL-10 turbine, then, super streamline the hull, add aerofoils, excellent controls, precision drive, improved fuel efficient plant and performance tuning and your G/Fighter might have a much more interesting performance rating and endurance.
 
BP said:
Or just build a spaceship... :P

Of course!

With the rules I'm using, smallcraft tend to have acceleration ratings, though, rather than velocity. Since they are gravitic, they will turn on a dime, but I'm not sure on where their speed tops out.
 
I've just now started looking over the design rules and did some computations. My take is the speed advantages of the turbine + jet vs. fusion + grav are reduced by other considerations such as fuel, anti-grav ability, more space for other gadgets, and no need of an atmosphere. Please tell me if I'm computing something wrong-

Using orginal poster's TL's and plants, I compared a 10 m3 Turbine-8 plant vs a Fusion-12 plant of the same size.

Turbine-8 10m3 gives 260 power, 900 kg mass.
Fusion-12 10m3 gives 240 power, 1500 kg mass.

Advantage to the turbine for performance due to large difference in weight and slight bonus in power.

But now factor in fuel. For easy comparison, going to give both plants 10 hours of operation time. Turbine-8 needs 800 litres of fuel with a mass of 800 kg. Fusion-12 needs 100 litres of fuel with a mass of 100 kg.

Refiguring with fuel:

Turbine-8 10m3 gives 260 power, 1700 kg mass. .8 m3 for fuel.
Fusion-12 10m3 gives 240 power, 1600 kg mass. .1 m3 for fuel.

Turbine has slight advantage of power, Fusion has slight advantage of mass due to carrying less fuel. It appears to start to even out when only plants are compared.

Now throw in the drives. For argument's sake, using a 50m3 craft which seems fitting for a 10 m3 powerplant:

Jet: 7.5 m3, 750 kg mass.
Grav: 2.5 m3, 450 kg mass.

So adding powerplant, fuel, and engine togather gives:

Turbine Jet: 18.3 m3, 260 power, 2450 kg.
Fusion Grav: 12.5 m3, 240 power, 2050 kg.

Grav fighter's drive system is taking up less space and mass with only a slight reduction in power.

But now figure speeds. I'm going to use a ballpark figure of 5000 kg mass for the fighter + powerplant, engine, fuel for both. The grav fighter, built with higher technology, would probably be lighter due to a lighter hull. But, keeping them the same because the argument is to use the Jet Turbine even at TL 12 due to its speed advantage.

Turbine Jet Fighter: 7450 kg, 260 power, base 250 kph = 2180 kph top speed.
Fusion Grav Fighter: 7050 kg, 240 power, base 200 kph = 1360 kph top speed.

Final: The older Jet Turbine Fighter, if placed in the same futurisitc hull as the Fusion Grav Fighter, will leave it behind. But, the Fusion Grav Fighter will have a significant amount of space advantage for other systems (in this example around 6 m3 in a 50 m3 craft). The Fusion Grav Fighter is also a VTOL craft, can hover without needing a runway. The Fusion Grav Fighter also does not need an atmosphere, while the Jet Turbine Fighter does. One is faster, the other more versatile (more space, hovers, doesn't need an atmosphere).

I think the best combination for an atmospheric fighter built at TL 12 is the Jet engine with a Fusion powerplant. The Jet gives the best speed combined with the lower fuel requirements of the Fusion powerplant.

Fusion Jet Fighter: 7350 kg, 240 power, base 250 kph = 2040 kph top speed. Nearly same top speed as the Turbine Jet with option of greatly increasing range due to much lower fuel requirements (fusion takes 1/8th the fuel of the turbine). Another option for the Fusion Jet Fighter is to add a Lifter propulsion in addition to the Jet propulsion. "Lifter" in Civilian Vehicles is a poor man's Grav drive that can only hover and move at a slow speed (such as a cargo platform). In the example above it would take only .5 m3 volume and add 10 kg mass. But, this would give hover ability to your high speed jet. You might argue that the Jet + Lifter would be able to operate without atmosphere since wing lift would no longer be needed? Fusion Jet Lift Fighter anyone? :) Seems the best of both worlds.

Note1: Shouldn't a Jet engine require much more fuel then a Grav engine regardless of the powerplant used? Nothing in Civilian Vehicles about this, all fuel requirements based solely upon the powerplant unless I missed something.

Note 2: I was surprised how fun it was tinkering with the design system in Civilian Vehicles, glad I looked into it finally.
 
pasuuli said:
With the rules I'm using, smallcraft tend to have acceleration ratings, though, rather than velocity. Since they are gravitic, they will turn on a dime, but I'm not sure on where their speed tops out.
You could use the rules for the air speed of streamlined vehicles from
GURPS Traveller:

mph = square root [(thrust / drag) x 15 million)]

with drag calculated as

drag = total surface area : 5

According to the GURPS formula, an Iramda Class fighter (10 dtons, TL
10) has an air speed of 3,000 mph, a Rampart Class fighter (10 dtons,
TL 12) an air speed of 4,330 mph.

In both cases it is the speed at which the vehicle can still maneuver, not
the theoretical maximum speed (e.g. of a vehicle that goes straight up
to reach orbit).
 
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