Middle earth ?

[weasel_fierce]

so, share your ideas and whatnot for playing RQ Middle Earth

I mean, we have the cornerstones, elves and hobbits and whatnot. But what else ?

talk talk talk!

 

[simonh]

Well, the Elves are nothing remotely, whatsoever like Tolkien's Elves although Mostali stats could be adapted for Dwarves.

The published magic systems don'tt fit at all though.

Without magical healing, RQ/ME characters are goign to die pretty easily too as RQ is a pretty unforgiving system.

I think the way to do it would probably be to use extraordinarily high skills as a proxy fro magic, so you have a wiorld-beating herbalist healer character to patch up the party, super-skilled elves with heroic abilities for the elven powers in the books, humans from Numenorian bloodlines that also get heroic boosts. That way the characters would be more survivable and have interesting options without having to use a system of cast magic.

 

[Cut]

Or we wait until the Decipher Lord of the Rings license runs out and Mongoose will give us either a new LotR RPG line or at least some ME sourcebook

 

[Rurik]

I ran a Middle Earth Game a long time ago using RQ3 and the I.C.E. Sourcebooks.

I ran it as a low magic game. The books focus on a few powerfu wizards such as the Istarii but overall magic is not commonplace, certainly not as commonplace as in MERP. If spellcasters were as common as most RPG's would have you believe there should be whole units of spellcasters flinging fireballs in the battles.

I used Sorcery as the basis for magic, and it worked well. The closest thing available to magic for players was herbalism. I treated magic very much how Pendragon does.

I havn't read Decipher's game so I don't know how much of that is suitable for use with RQ.

 

[Cut]

I havn't read Decipher's game so I don't know how much of that is suitable for use with RQ.

Decipher's CODA rules actualy are a nice system. The magic system refelcts the low-key magic seen in the trilogy, as you said focusing high power magic to seldom events and useage only by the Wise or the Evil, and then only very few of them. Magic use is very tiresome in Dcipher's game and you have to make a throw or become fatigued and by that more clumsy, slowly and less likely to suvive. The more spells you cast in a short period of time, the higher the possibility to tier and aquire the need to rest.
The spells aren't too powerful, there is the occasional healing spell (as combat is quite deadly as well) and some tricks like make small light, set things on fire. Most of those spells work in concert with the elements.
I liked that magic system very much and it was difficult to use.
Probably Sorcery from MRQ would be the closest fit in my eyes as well.

I don't think too highly of fantasy settings where magic users are on par or even insupirior numbers then the common folk. So the ME setting is one I like very much.

 

[Gevrin]

I've got a copy of a 146 page CODA to BRP conversion written by Colin Brett in 2004 (it's on the web at http://www.colinabrett.uklinux.net/). I haven't even read it all as I use CODA for the campaign I run for my sons, but while not complete it looks pretty good.

Cheers

Dave

 

[weasel_fierce]

Having a deadly game just means people need to think before they fight.. or be damn badasses

Magic, outside of a few key characters tends to be very limited. Sorcery sounds like a fine enough fit. I'd just as soon just ignore it, for PC purposes.

 

[Halfbat]

Magic, outside of a few key characters tends to be very limited. Sorcery sounds like a fine enough fit. I'd just as soon just ignore it, for PC purposes.

Except that Gandalf referred to "hedge-wizards", stating he was not one of them. Tolkein never referred to them, afaik, other than that. He also hinted at the hobbit's stealth skills as semi-magical (inherent Rune Spells?).

You're right that few of the lower 'bad guys' had any reference to magic but Aragorn had some (I know, he's a key character ) just because of his descent and elvenkind certainly do have access to a number of different magics, apparently more to do with healing, growth & nurture and communication.

Both Elves and Dwarfs appear to be able to manufacture magical weapons, too (Enchantments, perhaps - but what would be the pre-req's?).

I think it's more a case we only hear of the more powerful/the key figures.

 

[Cut]

But even the most powerful characters in the storyline as Sauron, Saruman or Gandalf had only some magical powers. Mostly they could influence some sort of element, could heal wounds and illness or could work magic and bind it to a material thing, as for a example a sword or the rings of power.
Even Anduril, the Flame of the West, Aragorn's sword, wasn't a magical weapon. Gandalf, the Grey didn't slaughter Orcs or Trolls with magic blows of spells, no he had Glamdring, an old and mighty, yet again not magical sword at his side. The only times he worked real high level magic it was against the Balrog of Moria, and then only defence stuff, the time he freed Theodred's mind from Saruman's grasp or when confronting the Nazghul, again only with a blinding light, not striking them down, but turning them away.

The setting of Middle Earth features a lot of magical abilities, especially the Elves are blessed with them: Immortality and all their special stuff, but that are more abilities then directly employed magical skills. Again, Galadriel and Elrond don't work wonders with their magic powers, but look into the hearts of people or heal wounds.

Imagine the battle for Helm's Deep within the Forgotten Realms of D&D.

Not a single spell was cast during that big and brutal fight, albthough Gandalf was there at the end. In a D&D setting this battle would have been dominated by spellcasters throwing lightning bolts, flames and explosions all around the valley. The Hornburg never would have been a safe retreat, as the castle walls would have been attacked by magic and would have been easily beaten.

Back to the topic of Magic in the RPG genre of LotRs: There is more than this subtle magic within Decipher's RPG, as player charactes would want to do a little bit more with their magic abilities. But there aren't the strong batlle spells available that clutter so many fantasy settings. Instead there are again spells closely tied to elements (raise fog, make fire, alright, there is a lightning bolt spell as well) or those spells that allow closeness to nature, like shapechanging into an animal, understand animals or things like that.

Well developed Sorcery spells could emulate this in a ME MRQ game.

If I was to GM one such game, I'd give the different species different special abilities, like walking undetected (Hobbits), Immortality and enhanced senses (Elves) and so on.

 

[Loz]

I've got a copy of a 146 page CODA to BRP conversion written by Colin Brett in 2004 (it's on the web at http://www.colinabrett.uklinux.net/). I haven't even read it all as I use CODA for the campaign I run for my sons, but while not complete it looks pretty good.

Cheers

Dave

And very, very nice it appears to be too. Easily adaptable to MRQ.

 

[kintire]

Even Anduril, the Flame of the West, Aragorn's sword, wasn't a magical weapon

It basically was. And it wasn't the only one, either; Sting glowed when orcs were present, and it and the Barrow Blades wounded trolls that normal weapons had serious trouble with.

Gandalf, the Grey didn't slaughter Orcs or Trolls with magic blows of spells

He slaughtered Wargs with magical fire though. And Glamdring was magical: it glowed when Orcs were present (and Balrogs apparently).

Immortality and all their special stuff, but that are more abilities then directly employed magical skills

Elven immortality is not magic, but their natural state. However, they have many magical abilities ranging from farseeing to telepathy. The latter seems quite common: Aragorn, Faramir and Denethor all display the ability to read minds. Dwarves can make magical items easily enough to give away to Hobbit children at a respected friend's 111th Birthday party. Elrond can raise rivers into flood, and Gandalf can form the waters into white horses. An entity on/in Caradhras can control the weather, and Sauron can send out clouds thick enough to blot out the Sun across much of North Western Middle Earth. Orcs have a drink that restores strength in moments, and a ram that can break an impregnable gate in three strokes with a burst of lightening, and that is impervious to fire.

Magic in Middle Earth is varied, often subtle, and tends to be ritual or long casting rather than instant booms (though not always) but it isn't rare; Hobbits are notable for not using it.

 

[Rurik]

I thought all elvish blades glowed when orcs were nearby - it is not necessarily a 'magical' property.

There is also mention in The Hobbit of the Dwarves casting some protection spells over hidden loot. Middle Earth is obviously a world infused with magic.

But very little of it is of the type RPG PC's would use in the course of a normal game. How often in the books is any Magic used in combat?

When I did run a RQ3 ME game none of the characters had magic other than herbalism. I had a blast with MERP when I played it, but it never seemed the right system for ME.

It also seems to me that Magic is 'leaving' or becoming less common on middle earth as the elder races leave and man rises in prominence, so that by the late 3rd Age when LOTR takes place magic is less common than earlier ages.

These are my impressions from reading the books and ICE supplements long ago. It has been over 15 years since I last read the books.

 

[Cut]

I thought all elvish blades glowed when orcs were nearby - it is not necessarily a 'magical' property.

That is how I see it as well.

I thought all elvish blades glowed when orcs were nearby - it is not necessarily a 'magical' property.

It also seems to me that Magic is 'leaving' or becoming less common on middle earth as the elder races leave and man rises in prominence, so that by the late 3rd Age when LOTR takes place magic is less common than earlier ages.

You might have nailed it here My thoughts exactly.

 

[soltakss]

I always thought that Sting was a special sword, not just an elven one.

Didn't Gandalf make his staff glow somewhere (in the Hobbit or LoTR)? Or maybe he had a lightbulb in it, as we know that a Wizard's Staff has a knob on the end (oh, wrong book).

The Palantir are definitely magical items and a Ring of Invisibility is also fairly magical.

So, there are, or were, ways of making magical items in Middle Earth.

As for spells, I agree that the major magical characters don't do much flashy magic, but they can do magic. It is clearly limited to their particular sphere of influence. Gandalf's appeared to be Fire/Light based, Whatshisface the Brown had Nature/Earth Magic, Saruman broke his magic by putting it through a prism, so we never saw much of it.

Normal people don't seem to have much magic at all, apart from the previously mentioned magical abilities - hobbits' sneak and elven immortality. But, that may be because the major characters in the books weren't magicians, except for the ones that were.

 

[The King]

I would also add that the confrontation between Gandalf and the Balrog (you shall not pass) is a sort of magical contest, not unlike a banishment. But as the Balrog can't be banished it is more a magical intimidation (POW vs. POW). And Gandalf failed for once.

The lighting vial of Galadriel is also magical.

The spell that Gandalf cast in Rivendell to stop the nazgul.

And the essence of the nazgul is high magic (as well as their swords: when Frodon is stuck by the lord's of the nazgul's blade).

In fact magic is very present on Arda but is always very subtle.

 

[Rurik]

I always thought that Sting was a special sword, not just an elven one.

Sting, Glamdring, and Orcrist (the swords discovered in The Hobbit) date to the first age and probably are magical. They are certainly legendary, as the Goblins recognise at least one of them by name (they call it 'Biter').

Didn't Gandalf make his staff glow somewhere (in the Hobbit or LoTR)? Or maybe he had a lightbulb in it, as we know that a Wizard's Staff has a knob on the end (oh, wrong book).

Gandalf definately has magic - but he is not human, he is an ancient race and member of an order of wizards whose number are very limited. He is an Istarii though I can't recall if that is the race or the Order. He is NOT a Human Magic User who managed to reach Level 20 or whatnot.

The Palantir are definitely magical items and a Ring of Invisibility is also fairly magical.

Are you referring to the Ring of Power as a Ring of Invisibility? Because if so that is the understatement of the year.

So, there are, or were, ways of making magical items in Middle Earth.

Absolutely. Enchanted Items seem to be one of the more common manifestations of Magic in the world.

As for spells, I agree that the major magical characters don't do much flashy magic, but they can do magic. It is clearly limited to their particular sphere of influence. Gandalf's appeared to be Fire/Light based, Whatshisface the Brown had Nature/Earth Magic, Saruman broke his magic by putting it through a prism, so we never saw much of it.

As mentioned earlier none of them are Human, they are all Istarii (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast the Brown, and I beleive even Sauron was one originally). They came millenia ago from that place across the sea the elves go to.

Normal people don't seem to have much magic at all, apart from the previously mentioned magical abilities - hobbits' sneak and elven immortality. But, that may be because the major characters in the books weren't magicians, except for the ones that were.

Which I think is the 'low magic' point about ME people are making. The books feature some of the most powerful personalities in the world. There is not really much in the way of common 'Flash Bang Boom' magic available to most races. Again, the battles would be very different if magic was common - there would be units of spellcasters flinging fireballs and such.

The world itself is definately infused with magic, but that does not mean most players will have access to it. I took a very Pendragon approach to it when I ran RQ in ME.[/quote]

 

[simonh]

The world itself is definately infused with magic, but that does not mean most players will have access to it. I took a very Pendragon approach to it when I ran RQ in ME.

Tolkien described Middle Earth as being a fictional place and time in the real world, not an alien or alternate reality. What is possible and impossible in ME is based on what he considered potentialy possible in the real world. Since he was a devout Catholic that happens to include angelic beings, miracles, demonic forces and divine intervention.

 

[kintire]

I thought all elvish blades glowed when orcs were nearby - it is not necessarily a 'magical' property

:shock:

I think we may be operating on different definitions here. How is a metal sword glowing not magical? Assuming its cool?

It also seems to me that Magic is 'leaving' or becoming less common on middle earth as the elder races leave and man rises in prominence, so that by the late 3rd Age when LOTR takes place magic is less common than earlier ages.

I think this is certainly true.

It is clearly limited to their particular sphere of influence. Gandalf's appeared to be Fire/Light based,

Apart from the "Shutting spell" he puts on the door in Moria... one of many he knows. And the various opening spells he tries on the outer door. He has an affinity for light and fire, but it would be a mistake to take it too far. Incidently when discussing the opening spell for the Doors of Moria, he mentions that he once knew all such spells that were used by Elves, Dwarves or Men.

He is an Istarii though I can't recall if that is the race or the Order

The order. Racially, if that is the right word, he is a Maia.

As mentioned earlier none of them are Human, they are all Istarii (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast the Brown, and I beleive even Sauron was one originally)

They are all Maia, and yes so was Sauron. But Galadriel is not, nor is Elrond.

Which I think is the 'low magic' point about ME people are making. The books feature some of the most powerful personalities in the world. There is not really much in the way of common 'Flash Bang Boom' magic available to most races.

Flash Bang Boom, perhaps not. But members of all the races use magic at some point in the books, even if you discount the Mouth of Sauron and the Lord of the Nazgul, who are both described as sorcerers (in the LotN's case, before he became a Nazgul).

 

[Rurik]

:shock:

I think we may be operating on different definitions here. How is a metal sword glowing not magical? Assuming its cool?

My understanding was that all Elven blades glow in the presence of Orcs. This can be seen as magical property if you like, my point was that I don't think the sword has to be specifically enchanted to glow, it does that by nature of being forged by Elves.

Many Elven items have magical properties, such as the Elven Cloaks and that Lambas bread (not positive I got the name right on the bread). Elves are clearly one of the most magical races.

The order. Racially, if that is the right word, he is a Maia.

Ahh, Thanks! I knew it was one or the other.

They are all Maia, and yes so was Sauron. But Galadriel is not, nor is Elrond.

Galadriel and Elrond are both powerful Elven Lords thousands of years old though.

I don't think anyone is saying that Middle Earth isn't a world of magic. I was the one who mentioned the Dwarves in The Hobbit all casting spells to conceal/protect their treasure (I think the loot from the Trolls - who, mind you, do not have pig noses :wink: ).

My original point is really just that the 'Standard' Fantasy RPG is not really a good representation of Middle Earth in that Magic Users are way too common - or perhaps way too powerful. There is not much in the way of magic that gets used in fights or battles in the book (excepting of course aforementioned Istari).

MERP was definitely not a good fit flavor wise for the magic in the books, nor was D&D, nor are most RPG games I am familiar with. It sounds like Decipher may have been a closer match - but then it was designed to match the setting. MERP just used a cut down version of Spell Law.

 

[kintire]

There is not much in the way of magic that gets used in fights or battles in the book (excepting of course aforementioned Istari).

I'd quibble over battles. The Siege of Minas Tirith involves a variety of curses and spells that sap the morale of the defenders, shroud the movements of the enemy in Darkness, and breaks the Gate. Still, it is a fact that when the main suspect for these spells ("sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul" as he is described) confronts Gandalf he draws a sword (with fire running along the blade admittedly) and when he confronts Eowyn he uses a mace. His magic seems to be of a drawn out ritual type, not point and shoot.

My original point is really just that the 'Standard' Fantasy RPG is not really a good representation of Middle Earth in that Magic Users are way too common - or perhaps way too powerful.

I think your basic point is right; Middle Earth magic is very different from standard fantasy fare, and MERP in particular was a very poor representation of it. I'd say different rather than rarer or weaker: less flashy, certainly, and often less defined. Among Elves, at least there seems to be a very fuzzy line between magic and very high skill.