Has just been uploaded to the BF Evo: WaW page - any comments gratefully appreciated.
Mid War Italian Playtest File
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Looks pretty thorough. One unit you might include is the Breda 20/65 AA Gun (the same one mounted on the Sahariana) mounted to either a light truck (Dovunque or TL-37) or as a ground mount--the units could do either. Depending on the source (the online Niehorster orbats say one thing, Nafziger says another) there were anywhere from 16 to 40 of the things in an Armored Division.
Image Googling "Breda 20/65" or "Breda Model 35" should give you some fine examples.
This would be consistent with including the Wirbelwind, the Bofors or the M16.
I'm not sure about the range on the Assault Mortar. This was a 45mm mortar and more of a direct fire weapon than the 81mm mortars. It had an effective range of about 500 meters or so. Making it about a quarter of the IRL range of the MG-42 with which it shares an in-game range. If it were me, I'd put it at about 30".
I'm also curious about the Damage for the 47mm Bohler, D6+2. The 37mm in both German and US service have D6+3. Not a HUGE difference I realize, but it brings up questions of consistency.
Just observations, I'm glad to see the "other" Axis starting to make an appearance!
Image Googling "Breda 20/65" or "Breda Model 35" should give you some fine examples.
This would be consistent with including the Wirbelwind, the Bofors or the M16.
I'm not sure about the range on the Assault Mortar. This was a 45mm mortar and more of a direct fire weapon than the 81mm mortars. It had an effective range of about 500 meters or so. Making it about a quarter of the IRL range of the MG-42 with which it shares an in-game range. If it were me, I'd put it at about 30".
I'm also curious about the Damage for the 47mm Bohler, D6+2. The 37mm in both German and US service have D6+3. Not a HUGE difference I realize, but it brings up questions of consistency.
Just observations, I'm glad to see the "other" Axis starting to make an appearance!
Thanks for the feedback, sorry for the sad state of the document. In early October we had our first child (a daughter) so I haven't had much chance to revise. Hopefully the holidays will allow for much gaming and refinement. Any grammar errors and problems please heap on my shoulders. :wink:
Feedback in English (or Italian if you prefer) appreciated. :lol:
Ciao!
ps - Commando Supremo is a well known and loved site.
Feedback in English (or Italian if you prefer) appreciated. :lol:
Ciao!
ps - Commando Supremo is a well known and loved site.
Hi Wolfhound,
from your post I would presume that you have written the Italian list.
True? :?: 8)
Can you tell us a bit about the idea behind the list? Why exactly this selection? Why not early war? And what is the list for? S&P, Logo License book or official Mongoose release? And what is "sad" in the doc? :wink:
I am very interested.
I am working on a detailed feedback, IMO some of the vehicle and weapon stats are a bit off, more soon. (I am very busy at the moment, but as you I am also hoping for some time over Christmas.)
from your post I would presume that you have written the Italian list.
True? :?: 8)
Can you tell us a bit about the idea behind the list? Why exactly this selection? Why not early war? And what is the list for? S&P, Logo License book or official Mongoose release? And what is "sad" in the doc? :wink:
I am very interested.
I am working on a detailed feedback, IMO some of the vehicle and weapon stats are a bit off, more soon. (I am very busy at the moment, but as you I am also hoping for some time over Christmas.)
True.
Mainly I did the list because I spent a lot of years at the university studying history and Italian language & culture and I wanted to.
The Corazzate (Armored Divisions) have the equipment options to make them the most interesting as a "first list" (Bersaglieri, Tanks, all the various vehicles, etc.).
As a first list, I wanted something that could be immediately useful for what's already available. With a mid-war list out as a baseline, early and late war become a lot easier to extrapolate for players who wish to experiment in those eras.
S&P/Logo License or Official Mongoose, not sure. I'll let Matt answer that one. :lol:
Sad stuff (at this time)
1) Playtesting for final stats: Motociclisti, the Assault Mortar, and the Solothurn ATR
2) "Accurate" belongs on the Mod.91 Marksman Rifle, not the regular
3) Final points and squad assests for the RSI list (I've done revisions in my own version into Fanatico and Paisano - the Fanatico represent X Mas, the Black Brigade, 29th Waffen SS Italianishe, etc. and the Paisano are the conscripted militia or released prisoner troops - similar to the German Grenadiers list)
4) Tweaking vehicles (especially the P.40 and the Semoventes) for final stats and points.
5) Absolutely anything and everything else that comes up.
Merry Christmas, I'm about to be invaded by family so please post any and all feedback. It's always welcome.
In boca a'lupo!
~Matt
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
The list looks generally fine as far as I can tell. There's a few places where my own information on the Italians differs from yours, mainly minor details, but as my data is mainly third-hand you may well be right anyway.
1: Italian rifles - Looks like the Mod. 91 was the designation for the carbine version, standard rifle was the Carcano M91 or Carcano M38 (M91 earlier, but both in use all through the war)
2: Brixia mortar - Range is a bit much, effective range doesn't seem to be much better than the squad LMGs (24"). Might be worth adding that it was capable of direct fire as a number of players house rule that standard mortars can't use that mode (also thought that it was issued to standard squads, rather than as a support weapon, but that could be problematic in the game so your way's best).
3: MG-42 - Far as I know, only the paratroopers were generally issued with this until after the war.
4: 47mm AT - Might be better with D6+3 (bigger shell than the German 37mm but less accurate)
5: Armour options - Might be an idea to allow later period Italians to also take German Panzer IVs (Carro IVs in Italian use) and Stug IIIs. Not only were they in use, but the models are easier to source. Not sure about having that heavy tank as an option, the M14 or M15 might be better as a heavier tank ( or the 90mm on the Semovente chassis if you really need a monster !).
6: Early period Fanteria - I'm less certain about my data on these, but it seems that both teams should have the option of an LMG, with one team having up to two. Unit leader's SMG might be better optional too.
Like I said, mostly nitpicking (other than the weapon stats ), the army lists nicely put together as it is.
1: Italian rifles - Looks like the Mod. 91 was the designation for the carbine version, standard rifle was the Carcano M91 or Carcano M38 (M91 earlier, but both in use all through the war)
2: Brixia mortar - Range is a bit much, effective range doesn't seem to be much better than the squad LMGs (24"). Might be worth adding that it was capable of direct fire as a number of players house rule that standard mortars can't use that mode (also thought that it was issued to standard squads, rather than as a support weapon, but that could be problematic in the game so your way's best).
3: MG-42 - Far as I know, only the paratroopers were generally issued with this until after the war.
4: 47mm AT - Might be better with D6+3 (bigger shell than the German 37mm but less accurate)
5: Armour options - Might be an idea to allow later period Italians to also take German Panzer IVs (Carro IVs in Italian use) and Stug IIIs. Not only were they in use, but the models are easier to source. Not sure about having that heavy tank as an option, the M14 or M15 might be better as a heavier tank ( or the 90mm on the Semovente chassis if you really need a monster !).
6: Early period Fanteria - I'm less certain about my data on these, but it seems that both teams should have the option of an LMG, with one team having up to two. Unit leader's SMG might be better optional too.
Like I said, mostly nitpicking (other than the weapon stats
), the army lists nicely put together as it is.Hi Wolfhound,
I have researched the last couple of days the Italians more thorough.
Unfortunately I have to disagree with almost every vehicle stat you came up. :? Nothing big, but all in all not fitting to the vehicles that are already established.
Since I have already invested many hours I am going to publish my own Italian Army book under the Logo License in 2009. It will cover all infantry forces plus the Italian vehicles from all periods of WW II. 8)
However to get more coherence into the various army list from the various authors please check the following weapon stats that would be fitting when compared with the WaW weapon stats. :wink: :wink:
20mm Breda 36" D6+2 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
20mm Solothurn ATR 36" D6+2 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
37mm VT 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 2", Slow
47/40 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Piercing/1, Slow
47/32 M35 or M37 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 2", Slow
75mm 75/18 24" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
75mm 75/34 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Piercing/1, Slow
90/53 60" D10+3 Lethal Zone/1”, Piercing/1, Slow
I have researched the last couple of days the Italians more thorough.
Unfortunately I have to disagree with almost every vehicle stat you came up. :? Nothing big, but all in all not fitting to the vehicles that are already established.
Since I have already invested many hours I am going to publish my own Italian Army book under the Logo License in 2009. It will cover all infantry forces plus the Italian vehicles from all periods of WW II. 8)
However to get more coherence into the various army list from the various authors please check the following weapon stats that would be fitting when compared with the WaW weapon stats. :wink: :wink:
20mm Breda 36" D6+2 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
20mm Solothurn ATR 36" D6+2 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
37mm VT 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 2", Slow
47/40 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Piercing/1, Slow
47/32 M35 or M37 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 2", Slow
75mm 75/18 24" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Slow
75mm 75/34 36" D6+3 Lethal Zone 1", Piercing/1, Slow
90/53 60" D10+3 Lethal Zone/1”, Piercing/1, Slow
Some more infos here guys: Wolfhound approached me in November with the above list. Unfortunately I had no real time to check his work at that time. (I was 10 weeks away from home on a job enrichment program, had to finish the Vehicle Compendiums, give the Pac War book a final glance and the house my wife and I are building is just reaching the finishing line..)
In retrospect I can see how my flippy comments on the weapons could be viewed. I really did not want to sound smartassy or whatever. I really like the Italian file as it is.
What we are facing here is IMO the system innate problem if several authors are working on one game system without a strict guideline. Not that this is by default a bad thing, but some discrepancy will appear.
Please see my above proposed weapon stats in this light!
In retrospect I can see how my flippy comments on the weapons could be viewed. I really did not want to sound smartassy or whatever. I really like the Italian file as it is.
What we are facing here is IMO the system innate problem if several authors are working on one game system without a strict guideline. Not that this is by default a bad thing, but some discrepancy will appear.
Please see my above proposed weapon stats in this light!
Which is the problem being discussed in the Soviet gun thread, which is deemed to be no problem there. The system DOES need a formula for working out stats or the whole game will be a mess of players own personal idea's and every release having different stats for the same weapon/vehicle.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
With Agis "distracted" by Gear Krieg, has there been any further thoughts on the playtest file?
A few thoughts, some related, others "related"...
Would the M14/41 differ much from the listed M13/40? Looking at their vitals, it appears that the M14/41 was about 10% faster (due to a more powerful engine) and had a little more armor. I can't see the armor difference showing up at WaW's level of granularity, but maybe the Tracked Special move for the M14/41 would be 9" instead of the 8" of the M13/40. Cost 5 points more, perhaps?
Did the Italians mix their Motociclisti with unmounted infantry, or were they, on paper at least, distinct formations?
Given that BFE:WaW is a skirmish (in the military sense, not the miniature count sense) game, can we get motorcycles for other forces? British LRDG seems a natural, and who doesn't want to be able to recreate the race scene from Indiana Jones?
A few thoughts, some related, others "related"...
Would the M14/41 differ much from the listed M13/40? Looking at their vitals, it appears that the M14/41 was about 10% faster (due to a more powerful engine) and had a little more armor. I can't see the armor difference showing up at WaW's level of granularity, but maybe the Tracked Special move for the M14/41 would be 9" instead of the 8" of the M13/40. Cost 5 points more, perhaps?
Did the Italians mix their Motociclisti with unmounted infantry, or were they, on paper at least, distinct formations?
Given that BFE:WaW is a skirmish (in the military sense, not the miniature count sense) game, can we get motorcycles for other forces? British LRDG seems a natural, and who doesn't want to be able to recreate the race scene from Indiana Jones?
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
Given that the Motociclisti varied from SP Machinegunners to simple mounted infantry (probably based on skill and circumstance), would it be more appropriate to treat the motorcycles as small vehicles with a Transport capacity of 2 or 3 (dependent on sidecar) and no ability to move if all the "passengers" debark?
Were the Motociclisti considered a motorized rifle unit or a motorized machinegun unit? Did this vary on paper and/or in the field?
Were the Motociclisti considered a motorized rifle unit or a motorized machinegun unit? Did this vary on paper and/or in the field?
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
AmanAgain said:
This topic seems to have a bit on squad sizes and some equipment info. There is another topic mentioned in this one with other info.
http://comandosupremo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2961
Among other things, it seems to answer my previous question. Motociclisti came in both "Rifle" squads (with an LMG per 6-8 men), and "Machinegun" squads (with an HMG per 10 men or so). A platoon was four squads in either case.
How this explains the FoW packaging of Motociclisti (with an LMG for every cycle) is beyond me...
Ciao,
Sorry to be away for so long but having your first child (now a second on the way) gets in the way of games sometimes. :lol:
I'd assumed Agis would have come out with his Italian Compendium by now, but I guess Gear Krieg is taking up his time (as well it should, it looks awesome! ).
If there's any interest I'd be happy to incorporate the above recommended tweaks as well as my own playtesting tweaks and see about a v2 document. However, I must admit I've had little interest in doing so as any such work would likely be overwritten by Agis's compendium, but I'd hate for another year to go by without "something"
Sorry to be away for so long but having your first child (now a second on the way) gets in the way of games sometimes. :lol:
I'd assumed Agis would have come out with his Italian Compendium by now, but I guess Gear Krieg is taking up his time (as well it should, it looks awesome!
). If there's any interest I'd be happy to incorporate the above recommended tweaks as well as my own playtesting tweaks and see about a v2 document. However, I must admit I've had little interest in doing so as any such work would likely be overwritten by Agis's compendium, but I'd hate for another year to go by without "something"
