MGT rules questions (initiative, stances, multi-actions)

[Colgrevance]

Hi all,

while reading through the Traveller combat rules today, a couple of questions came up - mostly just clarifications:

A) Initiative:

1) When failing a Tactics check during initiative setup, I still add the (negative) effect to everyone in the same unit, correct?
2) Are there any effects of negative initiative values (e.g. because of failed Tactics checks or multiple reactions)?
3) In what order do combatants have to declare "hasten"?
4) The initiative bonus caused by a Leadership check only lasts for one round, correct?
5) Does the change to initiative caused by delaying likewise only last one round?
6) What about Damage that changes my Dexterity score/DM - does this influence initiative at all?

B) Stance:

7) What is the movement rate of prone characters?
8) One cannot sprint while crouching, correct?
9) In my pocket rulebook, on p. 64 it is mentioned that all range attacks against prone characters except those made from Close or Personal range apply a -2 DM (implying Short range should be affected by the -2 DM), but according to the table on p. 61 the -2 DM should only apply for attacks at Medium or longer range... So what about Short range - is the DM -2 or 0?

C) Multiple Actions:

10) Does the multiple action penalty (-2 DM) apply during combat turns? If yes, under what conditions - anytime I'm conducting a minor and significant action (or several minor actions) at the same time, e.g. do I incur the penalty for moving (minor action) + attacking (significant action)? If not, what's the difference to the example stated on p. 50 (piloting + attacking)?

As I like to play RAW when trying a new game, any pointers to official errata/faq/rulebook references etc. would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

It's not a combat simulator in any way. As referee, you get to decide how things go when exact rules are not written.

 

[Colgrevance]

It's not a combat simulator in any way. As referee, you get to decide how things go when exact rules are not written.

Sure, but the MGT combat isn't exactly abstract and geared towards narrative play, either. And I do not feel it is unreasonable to want existing rules to be clear and consistent.

No offense meant, but I still stand by my questions - if I have to make up most of my rulings as GM, I do not need an official game system in the first place.

 

[Old timer]

Okay going to try and help you here with my understanding of the RAW, or if RAW does not cover it, the intention of the RAW (this is not official in any way).
First the Traveller errata document can be found here;
http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/ConsolidatedTravellerErrata.pdf

1- RAW does not say on this. By intent i do no think any negative is applied, you just dont get a bonus.
2- Negative I simple means you are going last, no other effect by RAW
3- Hasten would be declared after the set up phase when everyone has rolled their Initiative
4-By RAW is does not say, so that will have to be a GM call because hasten is for one round, whilst tactics bonus last the entire combat round (and i personally would allow the bonus to count for the entire combat to save on book keeping)
5- Yes (the description of delay is clear that it is only for that round, or if you do not act in that round then you go first on the next round)
6-Damage to you DEX does not effect your initiative, damage to STR, DEX, END effects task rolls
7- RAW does not say, but if crouch halves your move then i would assume that prone halves it again (so about 1.5m per round)
8- You cannot sprint when crouching, this is not spelled out by RAW but is implied and is also common sense
9- No RAW answer here, and no clear intent from the rules either, so i would suggest just picking one of those and going with that in your games
10- By RAW multiple action penalties dont seem to apply to combat as the combat round is broken down into minor and significant action and you are not penalised for taken a minor then significant action or 3 minor actions.

Hope this was of some help to you

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

No offense meant, but I still stand by my questions - if I have to make up most of my rulings as GM, I do not need an official game system in the first place.

We're not talking about most rulings though. Keep Calm and Referee.

 

[Colgrevance]

[...] Hope this was of some help to you

Thank you, that is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for!

I agree with almost all your suggestions, but I am not sure I like the "positive effect only" reading of the Tactics/initiative rules (question no. 1). Bad tactical decisions should bring some disadvantage, and it makes for a tough decision before combat (should I roll for Tactics or not?) if there can be a detrimental effect, too.

Sadly, your post confirms most of my doubts, too - looks like I will have to fix some issues before we play our first game. No problem, but I have come to like tight rules systems, especially concerning combat.

 

[Balfuset790]

Okay, here's my understanding of the RAW to answer your questions:

A) Initiative:

1) When failing a Tactics check during initiative setup, I still add the (negative) effect to everyone in the same unit, correct?
Yes, DMs are always applied whether good or bad

2) Are there any effects of negative initiative values (e.g. because of failed Tactics checks or multiple reactions)?
No, as far as I'm aware they either count as Initiative 0 anda ct in order of Dexterity DM, or they just act in true numerical order

3) In what order do combatants have to declare "hasten"?
The rules aren't clear on this but personally I would say in REVERSE initative order, as it gives those who act faster a chance to react to the previous character's hastening

4) The initiative bonus caused by a Leadership check only lasts for one round, correct?
Nope, all initiative bonuses/penalties are permanent until changed in any other way.

5) Does the change to initiative caused by delaying likewise only last one round?
See above

6) What about Damage that changes my Dexterity score/DM - does this influence initiative at all?
It does, see above

B) Stance:

7) What is the movement rate of prone characters?
No official ruling on this, but I'd say 1/2 move for crouching, 1/4 move for prone

8) One cannot sprint while crouching, correct?
Would make sense to say no

9) In my pocket rulebook, on p. 64 it is mentioned that all range attacks against prone characters except those made from Close or Personal range apply a -2 DM (implying Short range should be affected by the -2 DM), but according to the table on p. 61 the -2 DM should only apply for attacks at Medium or longer range... So what about Short range - is the DM -2 or 0?
Nothing in the erata that I can see, but I'd go with what the text says, short range is 3-12 metres and I'd say that's not close enough to be able to hit a prone target as easily as being <3 metres away,

C) Multiple Actions:

10) Does the multiple action penalty (-2 DM) apply during combat turns? If yes, under what conditions - anytime I'm conducting a minor and significant action (or several minor actions) at the same time, e.g. do I incur the penalty for moving (minor action) + attacking (significant action)? If not, what's the difference to the example stated on p. 50 (piloting + attacking)?
Yes, but only if you're attempting multiple significant actions. As far as I'm aware a character can use one significant action to make MULTIPLE actions - such as piloting and attacking (with piloting being a significant action). So there's no penalty for moving and attacking, but there would be if you wanted to fire a pistol with one hand while trying to hack a console with the other, for example. The only limit seems to be how many penalties you want to risks tacking up.

 

[Colgrevance]

Okay, here's my understanding of the RAW to answer your questions:

[...]

Thank you, too!

Wow, that's almost the exact opposite interpretation from the answers Old timer has given... Several things probably do not make much of a difference, but some rules (e.g. initiative reduction from failed Tactics checks or multiple actions in combat) could really change the flow of the game.

I think I'll have to try them out to get a feel for the different suggestions, but I had really hoped to avoid such additional work. And I am wondering why those questions haven't come up more often - is Traveller mostly playes solo nowadays, with everyone just designing spaceships and subsector profiles? Or are Traveller GMs accustomed to loose rules from Classic Traveller times? :shock:

I am not trying to talk MGT down (I actually like what I've read so far), but most other rpgs I have played would have elicited much more questions/demand for clarification from their respective communities, so I am really wondering about the state of things here.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I agree that a negative tactics check should give everyone a penalty, representing a badly communicated order or simply a bad one.

As for the penalty for multiple actions, I never quite understood when or why it applies. Using it when someone wants to take two major actions in a single rounds does sound reasonable though. Would also mean that it's possible albeit difficult to even make two attacks without resorting to autofire spray n pray.

When it comes to vehicles I'm a bit torn. Controlling the vehicle and firing a weapon seems to invoke multi-action penalty, but merely controlling the vehicle also 'costs' one minor action per round, right? But the minor control action cannot be used to line up a shoot and use a single major action to attack, avoiding the penalty?

 

[F33D]

I am not trying to talk MGT down (I actually like what I've read so far), but most other rpgs I have played would have elicited much more questions/demand for clarification from their respective communities, so I am really wondering about the state of things here.

As the main rule books came out (years ago) there was a flurry of member requests for all of this errata but most went unanswered over the years by Mongoose.

 

[dragoner]

Combat round is six seconds, so much of it is what is a reasonable assumption, if you are having to hover over your player's every action, it will slow down the game by quite a bit. I am generally more lenient towards players vs NPC's, because otherwise there is not a difference, and combat can become quite deadly for players.

Delay, as well as many other actions or effects, like recoil, only last for that round. For the players, the usual initiative is 12 plus the Dex DM. So a bad roll might knock it down a bit, but it can come back up.

I wouldn't give the -2 at short range, most encounters are at medium anyways.

Generally, with new players, I run an NPC, taking advantage of the rules so they can see how it is played.

 

[Colgrevance]

As the main rule books came out (years ago) there was a flurry of member requests for all of this errata but most went unanswered over the years by Mongoose.

Thanks for this bit of context and everyone who chimed in with their suggestions.

I prefer games with good publisher support, but will give MGT a try nonetheless just to see how it works at the table (we will start a short 2300AD campaign this summer).

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

And I am wondering why those questions haven't come up more often - is Traveller mostly playes solo nowadays, with everyone just designing spaceships and subsector profiles? Or are Traveller GMs accustomed to loose rules from Classic Traveller times? :shock:

Mongoose Traveller's focus is on adventure/role-play gaming. Mongoose sells other games that are aimed at board/war gaming.

Role-players eat the corebook up for ideas to use with their characters. MgT is about characters. See its chargen section.

 

[Colgrevance]

Mongoose Traveller's focus is on adventure/role-play gaming. Mongoose sells other games that are aimed at board/war gaming.

Role-players eat the corebook up for ideas to use with their characters. MgT is about characters. See its chargen section.

Yes, I got that the first time you posted in this thread.
Yes, 90% of my gaming time is spent roleplaying character interactions with the occasional skill check thrown in.

Still, sometimes a fight breaks out, and then I like combat rules without obvious loopholes that require me to stop (even for a short moment) to look for errata or make something up that might lead to further problems.

That's why I came to this forum to look for answers to the specific questions I had (and still have, in some cases). If I want advice about how to roleplay "correctly", I will let you know asap. Thank you very much. :roll:

 

[F33D]

Yes, I got that the first time you posted in this thread.

Ignore him. He's the resident pet Troll

 

[CosmicGamer]

C) Multiple Actions:

10) Does the multiple action penalty (-2 DM) apply during combat turns?

If yes, under what conditions - anytime I'm conducting a minor and significant action (or several minor actions) at the same time, e.g. do I incur the penalty for moving (minor action) + attacking (significant action)? If not, what's the difference to the example stated on p. 50 (piloting + attacking)?

10- By RAW multiple action penalties dont seem to apply to combat as the combat round is broken down into minor and significant action and you are not penalised for taken a minor then significant action or 3 minor actions.

10)Yes, if you're attempting multiple significant actions.

Those are not polar opposites. I can see both being true.

I sometimes think of combat as being 6 seconds with minor actions taking 2 seconds and a significant action taking 4 seconds.

So you can do a combination of things during a combat turn such that they do not fall under Multiple Actions. Run, then stop and shoot. Run six meters (minor action) + shoot (significant action).

However, if a character were to do things during a combat turn such that they are occurring simultaneously, this falls under Multiple Actions. Run and shoot at the same time. Run 18 meters (3 minor actions) + shoot (significant action).

Their are so many possibilities, it is understandable the rules do not go into them. This is what the GM is for. This is where other rules can help give guidance.

A player does not have to roll Athletics to run through a forest

But for the running and shooting simultaneous multiple actions example, perhaps the danger, difficulty, pressure, and importance are enough that a skill check is needed to make sure you don't encounter some hazard while only half paying attention to your footing?

Can someone shoot while jumping across a rooftop? Can someone shoot while climbing - how do they hold on - maybe they have climbing gear that will suspend them?

Don't forget that even though standard combat is a average +0 task, the GM can use the rules and alter the difficulty. Shooting paper targets, maybe this is a routine +2DM task. Shooting while hanging in a climbing harness, maybe this is a difficult -2DM task.

So perhaps a not so uncommon action movie scene of sliding down a rope one handed for three minor actions while shooting at the same time is possible with a -DM for multiple actions and -DM for increased difficulty.

There always seams to be the player who want's to go into combat with a pistol in each hand? Fine. A GM can work this out with the RAW. Start adding up the negative DMs. Personally I also impose a higher difficulty for the off hand.