MgT HG 2e Step 10 Determine Crew

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Hopefully I am not duplicating and did not miss any material already posted on the subject of HG 2e Crew requirements

1. Position: Captain

The term Captain is applied to the individual, usually an officer, who is in actual command of a ship. In today's Merchant service the Captain is also known as the Ship's Master.

Under the Commercial column is the annotation: "Usually the leading officer" and in the Military column is the digit 1.

I believe that in MgT "the leading officer" is the character with the highest skill rating of Leadership. For the Military my guess is that the Captain has highest skill in Leadership and/or Tactics.

Regardless both Commercial and Military ship's have a Captain and the individual is in command of the ship and is the leading officer.

In MgT Commercial ships my guess is the Pilot with the highest skill level is the Captain. Of course the owner of a commercial ship with pilot skill could also be the Captain.

So am I on the right track or out to lunch as usual?

 

[Condottiere]

The ship's owner would normally appoint the captain; pirates tend to be more democratic and vote in the top officers.

 

[legozhodani]

I'm sure many units wish it was the guy/gal with the highest leadership and tactics, sadly it isn't always. Politics of some form often wins out.

 

[Jeraa]

Just like in real life, the person with the job isn't necessarily the most skilled person. Your pilot might not necessarily be the most skilled pilot on board, likewise the captain might not be the person most fit for that duty. Especially on military craft, where you are assigned a job instead of just work whatever position you want.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Skill is not rank and rank is not skill.

People are promoted by people, there is no direct way to measure his skill level. People may be promoted just as much for loyalty, personality, seniority, contacts, or social standing as for skill. Or for wearing the right clothes.

 

[steve98052]

I believe that in MgT "the leading officer" is the character with the highest skill rating of Leadership. For the Military my guess is that the Captain has highest skill in Leadership and/or Tactics.

The commanding officer* of a military ship is the one of highest rank, regardless of Leadership or Tactics. One would hope that the commanding officer is good at Leadership and Tactics, but that's not how it works; rank rules.

* The commanding officer is often called "captain" by custom, even if he or she has a higher or lower rank. A smaller ship might be commanded by a low ranking officer, and a small craft by a skilled NCO (since Traveller doesn't include warrant officers in its ranking scale). A commanding officer who does not hold the rank of captain is more properly called "skipper" if lower than captain rank, and as "admiral" if higher.

In MgT Commercial ships my guess is the Pilot with the highest skill level is the Captain. Of course the owner of a commercial ship with pilot skill could also be the Captain.

The person in command of a commercial ship is the owner, if the owner is aboard, even if the owner's sole qualification is money. An ownrr-aboard would typically be addressed as "captain", unless the ship is normally commanded by a hired captain; in that case the usual commander would be addressed as "captain" and the owner as something else, such as "master".

In a case where an owner-aboard is not qualified to command in an emergency (combat, malfunction, etc.), he or she might turn over command to someone else, probably addressed as "captain". For the duration of the emergency, the emergency commander's word would be law, binding even on the owner-aboard.

The ship's owner would normally appoint the captain; pirates tend to be more democratic and vote in the top officers.

If we follow the example of historical pirate tradition, a pirate ship would follow strict military rank discipline during combat, but democracy outside combat, with little more than esteem and maybe tiebreaker authority to the captain. Talking back to the captain during combat (other than for clarification) is a serious, but outside combat even a fist fight with the captain is just pirates being pirates.

That's the historical tradition, but not necessarily actual practice on every pirate ship, let alone space pirates.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

The ship's owner would normally appoint the captain; pirates tend to be more democratic and vote in the top officers.

Please provide the source in MgT CRB 2e and/or HG 2e that indicates that the ship's owner appoints the Captain.

The MgT HG 2e Crew Requirements Table has Captain Commercial: Usually the leading officer.

Who is the leading officer in command of an Empress Marava-Class Free Trader?

The Crew of the Marava is a Pilot/Astrogator, Engineer, Medic, Steward, and 2 gunners as needed.

Looking at the real world the Empress Marava-Class is what I would classify as a tramp freighter which has a Captain that may or may not be standing routine watches in addition the Pilot/Astrogator, Engineer, Medic, Steward, and 2 gunners as needed.

None of the Commercial ships in HG 2e have a Captain.

Yep, pirates appoint their officers by voting them in, however the crew can and often did get rid of the officers that failed to meet their expectations.

 

[Condottiere]

It's my ship; if I don't want to or can't oversee the day to day running of it, I'd appoint someone with the requisite experience, qualifications and certification.

The relevant word in the text is usually.

All junior officers who feel slighted at the choice will look for berths in other ships.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello steve98052,

My apologies for not quoting your reply, when I select quote the reply area is blank and copying and pasting returned a blank preview page.

Yes, in the military the ship's commanding officer is a line officer assigned by higher authority who is in actual command and regardless rank is called "Captain".

No, as a retired sailor the proper title for addressing the commanding officer of a ship is "Captain" regardless of rank. The use of "Skipper" is an informal term as is using "the Old Man". A NCO in charge of small craft like a tug boat would be referred to as the tug's Master.

I believe that the Traveller requirements for Captain are modeled on real world requirements. If the owner has the qualifications and passed the test for a Ship's Master rating the individual will be an Owner/Captain. A commercial vessel owned by a Traveller MegaCorporation would or should appoint an officer that met the requirements to be a Ship's Master or Captain.

A Ship's Captain, commercial or military, is ultimately responsible for the ship at all times. A US fast attack ran aground that made the news the Captain was a sleep in his cabin. The Captain was removed from command pretty much killing his career. The officer of the watch also had his career killed and sadly the Quarter Master of the Watch was busted.

If I were in a game where the Owner/Player turned over command in an emergency or in combat I would be really teed off and my character would have walked away at the next port of call. Of course my characters seem not to survive in such encounters.

The Captain of the cruise ship Concordia, IIRC, that ran aground and sinking with the loss of passenger lives in the Mediterranean was held accountable for accident and lost his Master's license/papers for leaving the ship.

A Ship's Captain when underway is the highest authority onboard even when the owner, who is not qualified or taken command of the ship, is onboard. If the Ship's Captain does what the owner orders and the ship is damaged the Captain is going to be the one to take the heat.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

It's my ship; if I don't want to or can't oversee the day to day running of it, I'd appoint someone with the requisite experience, qualifications and certification.

The relevant word in the text is usually.

All junior officers who feel slighted at the choice will look for berths in other ships.

First off I must apologize for not being clear once again.

None of the Ship Record Sheets in HG 2e for commercial hulls >= 100 tons have a Captain assigned.

In HG 2e Step 10 Determine Crew the Commercial requirement is usually the leading officer.

Who is the leading officer and therefore the Captain for the examples of non-military ships?

If the owner is the Captain then in my opinion the Crew list should be Owner/Captain or Captain/Owner.

Would the ship record sheet owned by your character given to a Referee include Owner/Captain as part of the crew list?

In CT LBB 2 and CT LBB 5 hulls > 1,000 require a Captain. CRB 1e p. 113 did not list Captain as required crew and HG 1e Capital Ships for hulls >= 2,001 per p. 66 requires a Captain.

My preference would be to have a Captain listed separately and as an alternative something like Captain/Pilot.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The core book defines the ship's owner and operator that may or may not be the same entity. The operator hires the crew (p145), so presumably appoints the Captain. The owner and operator may be juridical persons, not necessarily natural persons.

The crew table in HG does not list Captain as a separate crew position for civilian vessels. It is listed as "Usually the leading officer", so it is usually one of the otherwise defined crew with the highest rank. Merchant rank structure is described on p32 of the core book.

HG p20 "Small Star Ships" says that ships of less than 1000 dT may carry as little crew as desired, so the listed crew for a Marava is the recommended crew, not required crew. The Referee may impose legal requirements, e.g. for carrying passengers.

Virtual Crew, various expert systems, and robots make fully automated ships possible, so there may be no crew at all.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

The core book defines the ship's owner and operator that may or may not be the same entity. The operator hires the crew (p145), so presumably appoints the Captain. The owner and operator may be juridical persons, not necessarily natural persons.

The crew table in HG does not list Captain as a separate crew position for civilian vessels. It is listed as "Usually the leading officer", so it is usually one of the otherwise defined crew with the highest rank. Merchant rank structure is described on p32 of the core book.

HG p20 "Small Star Ships" says that ships of less than 1000 dT may carry as little crew as desired, so the listed crew for a Marava is the recommended crew, not required crew. The Referee may impose legal requirements, e.g. for carrying passengers.

Virtual Crew, various expert systems, and robots make fully automated ships possible, so there may be no crew at all.

This shows that the authors of MgT HG 2e in my opinion failed to do proper research or ignored the fact that Merchant and Military services have similar structures for the chain of command and both services require a ship to have an appointed commanding officer in Civilian/Merchant/Commercial terms an individual holding papers of a Ship's Master. If the owner has Master's papers the individual can be in command of the vessel, if not then the owner is required to hire a Ship's Master. In the military the commanding officer or Captain is appointed by Naval Military Personnel Command/Department.

Who in the Crew is the leading officer? How is the leading officer determined?

The answer of the designer/referee hand waves them is a bit much for me since I know from experience and research of what is required to operate Merchant and Military ships. During my tour of duty on the USS Simon Lake AS-33 I talked with the crew of ship's that had been hired from commercial/merchant companies to deliver supplies. I also rubbed elbows with Military Sealift Command ship crews. While awaiting separation from the USN for retirement I looked into cross decking to the Merchant Service and did more research before posting this topic. A Merchant/Commercial Ship's Chain of Command has at the top of the Chain of Command: Ship's Master/Captain. The Master Mate or First Mate when a Master Mate is not in the Chain of Command takes command of the vessel when the Captain is not present or unable to perform the duties associated with the position of Captain/Ship's Master.

Yes, replacing the crew and bridge the Expert, Agent, Intellect, Virtual Crew programs, and robots would make a fully automated ship a drone. This would be a huge departure from the established background from OT, MT, especially TNE, T4, GURPS Traveller, Traveller 2000 Universes that require at least one living crew member.

Since the designer or referee has the option to hand wave a Captain for a Commercial Ship my designs will include the detail Captain on the Crew lists in the write-up and on Ship Record Sheets.

 

[AndrewW]

This shows that the authors of MgT HG 2e in my opinion failed to do proper research or ignored the fact that Merchant and Military services have similar structures for the chain of command and both services require a ship to have an appointed commanding officer in Civilian/Merchant/Commercial terms an individual holding papers of a Ship's Master. If the owner has Master's papers the individual can be in command of the vessel, if not then the owner is required to hire a Ship's Master. In the military the commanding officer or Captain is appointed by Naval Military Personnel Command/Department.

You are free to appoint one. Don't forget your typical adventurers may not have any masters certificate and might then be forced to either get one or higher someone with one, rather then just crewing the ship on their own.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Who in the Crew is the leading officer? How is the leading officer determined?

How do we establish the chain of command on a military vessel? Who appoints the Captain in the Navy? The rules does not say.

The char gen rules hints that merchants have a rank structure and chain of command that mirrors that of military vessels, but no details are given.

It is unlikely that all merchant corporations from Tukera to Akerut to a Mom-and-Pop-Free-Trader will have the same traditions.

Yes, replacing the crew and bridge the Expert, Agent, Intellect, Virtual Crew programs, and robots would make a fully automated ship a drone. This would be a huge departure from the established background from OT, MT, especially TNE, T4, GURPS Traveller, Traveller 2000 Universes that require at least one living crew member.

We have been able to do this since CT with robots. (I consider that "not fun" so I don't allow it in my game.)

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Who in the Crew is the leading officer? How is the leading officer determined?

How do we establish the chain of command on a military vessel? Who appoints the Captain in the Navy? The rules does not say.

The rules are based on real world information that the authors figured did not need to be repeated since one can research the material.

The char gen rules hints that merchants have a rank structure and chain of command that mirrors that of military vessels, but no details are given.

Yes, the rules in CRB 2e and HG 2e left out material from CRB 1e, HG 1e, CT LBB 2 Starships, CT LBB 5 HG, and CT LBB 7 Merchant Prince. However since the rank structures and chain command are taken from the real world one can research the material.

It is unlikely that all merchant corporations from Tukera to Akerut to a Mom-and-Pop-Free-Trader will have the same traditions.

Once again the real world from which the rules are written from disagrees as does all of the books I've read by Andre Norton, David Drake, Ian Douglas, David Weber, A. Bertram Chandler, or other Science Fiction writers describing spacecraft. Looking at fictional and real world books discussing accounts of ships indicates that the follow the same basic rules though they may not equate a Captain as an O5 in civilian service.

Yes, replacing the crew and bridge the Expert, Agent, Intellect, Virtual Crew programs, and robots would make a fully automated ship a drone. This would be a huge departure from the established background from OT, MT, especially TNE, T4, GURPS Traveller, Traveller 2000 Universes that require at least one living crew member.

We have been able to do this since CT with robots. (I consider that "not fun" so I don't allow it in my game.)

Please provide a source, which I hopefully can review, that has a ship that has no living crew assigned and is solely operated by robots?

Oops, I forgot to say that I recall but I have not found the Traveller source yet that stated computers could not operate a ship without one living crew member onboard. I am still digging and I'm hoping that I am not making up the information or importing material from a different game.

 

[Condottiere]

Forget character generation.

You have Captain, First mate, Second Mate, Third Mate and so on, plus the engineering department. Chain of command should be pretty clear, and not likely to be interrupted by getting shot or blown up.

In the normal course of events, it's the owner or his representative who appoints/hires these ship's officers.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT all,

In the post I made on Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:11 pm I made the a comment that I need to clarify. My opinion is that the authors of the various rule sets, not just Traveller or MgT HG2e, I own have failed to do proper research or ignored facts based on real world examples used to model the rules.

The Captain, per the table on MgT HG 2e p. 21,is a position not a rank. The Captain is the individual who is in command and is held accountable for everything related to the functioning of a ship and actions of the crew. The Captain of a ship, civilian or military, is at the top of the organizational chart regardless of pay grade or rank. There are a lot of requirements an individual has to meet with a certain level of competence before assuming the duties and responsibilities in commanding a ship and the title of Captain in both military and commercial/merchant service.

MgT HG 2e indicates that a Commercial Ship's Captain is usually the leading officer and in the military the requires 1 NPC or PC.
In the military the leading officer is the individual who is eligible to command a ship and usually is the highest pay grade or longest time in pay grade.

In Merchant service this is a bit trickier since an individual can raise rapidly by meeting the requirement for the licenses or papers to be a Ship's Master or Captain.

In both cases the individual in command of the vessel is the ship's "Captain" and is at the top of the Chain of Command.

 

[steve98052]

Yes, in the military the ship's commanding officer is a line officer assigned by higher authority who is in actual command and regardless rank is called "Captain".

No, as a retired sailor the proper title for addressing the commanding officer of a ship is "Captain" regardless of rank. The use of "Skipper" is an informal term as is using "the Old Man". A NCO in charge of small craft like a tug boat would be referred to as the tug's Master.

Thanks for the clarification. I've seen conflicting information, but your background suggests that yours is more authoritative.

I believe that the Traveller requirements for Captain are modeled on real world requirements. If the owner has the qualifications and passed the test for a Ship's Master rating the individual will be an Owner/Captain. A commercial vessel owned by a Traveller MegaCorporation would or should appoint an officer that met the requirements to be a Ship's Master or Captain. . . .

Yes, much is modeled on the real world. In some cases it has been accused of modeling things so closely on real world US, beyond what could realistically be expected to persist for millennia, that some aspects of Traveller picked up the derisive nickname "Yanks in Space".

SJ Games is particularly strong on the research side. They put the skills and the licenses that give legal recognition of the skills as separate line items on the character sheet.

A Ship's Captain, commercial or military, is ultimately responsible for the ship at all times. . . .

Of course. They have in many cases been the top representative of the law ashore -- one reason they're granted authority to perform marriages that occur at sea. Since radio, the law can still reach a ship at sea, but in the customary Traveller setting things are a lot more like sea before radio.

If I were in a game where the Owner/Player turned over command in an emergency or in combat I would be really teed off and my character would have walked away at the next port of call. Of course my characters seem not to survive in such encounters.

I would play this according to circumstances. If the owner of a ship were a dilettante noble or a merchant who somehow acquired a ship without the skills to command it, I think that would be proper. Maybe the owner would have authority over ship's business, but the captain would be in command of operations. Or maybe the owner would have authority in routine circumstances, but the captain in combat. That could create interesting role-play.

"Captain, take us to Efate right now."
"Your lordship, we are not at safe jump distance. I will give the order to proceed to jump distance at top speed and jump immediately, but we are not going to jump now."
"I'm paying your salary. I need to get to the festival and I can't be late. Jump now."
"If we jump now, we might not arrive at all. Go ahead and fire me, but I'm not going to jump now. And you'll have to fire everyone down to the toilet paper steward, because no one else is going to jump this early."

Or . . .

"Your lordship, we've been fired upon; we sre in combat. I must assume command for the duration."
"Captain, that was just a warning shot. We're not in combat. I think they're bluffing."
"Warning shots are combat. I am in command. Eneri, remove his lordship from the bridge."
"You're fired!"
"You can't fire me during combat. Fire me later if we get through this in one piece. Eneri?"
"Yes, captain. This way, your lordship. I wouldn't want to wrinkle your uniform with my handcuffs."

 

[Condottiere]

For the military, the rank you're promoted to does tend to indicate your likely command or post; if an admiral wants to be officially appointed to the captaincy of a battleship, he takes a temporary reduction in rank.

In the event of that there are more qualified officers than slots, those slots have rank inflation.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello stever98052,

The web gremlins allowed me to quote your replies

Yes, in the military the ship's commanding officer is a line officer assigned by higher authority who is in actual command and regardless rank is called "Captain".

No, as a retired sailor the proper title for addressing the commanding officer of a ship is "Captain" regardless of rank. The use of "Skipper" is an informal term as is using "the Old Man". A NCO in charge of small craft like a tug boat would be referred to as the tug's Master.

Thanks for the clarification. I've seen conflicting information, but your background suggests that yours is more authoritative.

The information I provided is based on 20 years of service in the USN, a copy of the Bluejackets' Manual, and cross referencing with material at my local library and from the Internet searches.

I believe that the Traveller requirements for Captain are modeled on real world requirements. If the owner has the qualifications and passed the test for a Ship's Master rating the individual will be an Owner/Captain. A commercial vessel owned by a Traveller MegaCorporation would or should appoint an officer that met the requirements to be a Ship's Master or Captain. . . .

Yes, much is modeled on the real world. In some cases it has been accused of modeling things so closely on real world US, beyond what could realistically be expected to persist for millennia, that some aspects of Traveller picked up the derisive nickname "Yanks in Space".

SJ Games is particularly strong on the research side. They put the skills and the licenses that give legal recognition of the skills as separate line items on the character sheet.

The creators of Traveller are based in the US and at least one of them had served in the, I believe, United States Army so the accusation about the modelling is probably valid.

I can not confirm or deny that the US had anything to due with equating Captain with the age old title of Ship's Master, but from what I have dug up on the subject.

One of my projects resulted in I think a rough working spreadsheet the converts CT, MT, TNE, and T4 skills into GURPS Traveller.

A Ship's Captain, commercial or military, is ultimately responsible for the ship at all times. . . .

Of course. They have in many cases been the top representative of the law ashore -- one reason they're granted authority to perform marriages that occur at sea. Since radio, the law can still reach a ship at sea, but in the customary Traveller setting things are a lot more like sea before radio.

My information and background suggests that the Captain/Master ultimate powers are restricted to the ship they command. As for the ability to marry people I have not researched when that power came into being.

If I were in a game where the Owner/Player turned over command in an emergency or in combat I would be really teed off and my character would have walked away at the next port of call. Of course my characters seem not to survive in such encounters.

I would play this according to circumstances. If the owner of a ship were a dilettante noble or a merchant who somehow acquired a ship without the skills to command it, I think that would be proper. Maybe the owner would have authority over ship's business, but the captain would be in command of operations. Or maybe the owner would have authority in routine circumstances, but the captain in combat. That could create interesting role-play.

"Captain, take us to Efate right now."
"Your lordship, we are not at safe jump distance. I will give the order to proceed to jump distance at top speed and jump immediately, but we are not going to jump now."
"I'm paying your salary. I need to get to the festival and I can't be late. Jump now."
"If we jump now, we might not arrive at all. Go ahead and fire me, but I'm not going to jump now. And you'll have to fire everyone down to the toilet paper steward, because no one else is going to jump this early."

Or . . .

"Your lordship, we've been fired upon; we sre in combat. I must assume command for the duration."
"Captain, that was just a warning shot. We're not in combat. I think they're bluffing."
"Warning shots are combat. I am in command. Eneri, remove his lordship from the bridge."
"You're fired!"
"You can't fire me during combat. Fire me later if we get through this in one piece. Eneri?"
"Yes, captain. This way, your lordship. I wouldn't want to wrinkle your uniform with my handcuffs."

I agree that the first situation might occur since the owner does not appear to be in command of the ship.

In the second example my impression is that the owner is in command of the ship and when the "Captain" takes command the individual is technically a mutineer. A Court of Inquiry, provided they all survived, might acquit the "Captain" but then again they might strip the individual of his Master's license/papers, sent to prison, and/or executed.