Metal Hydride storage

DFW

Mongoose
I'm just digging into HG to look at capital ship design. Sorry if this is a question that has been asked and answered.

From the book: "Instead of storing the ship’s hydrogen in liquid form at extremely low temperature with a high risk of explosion if a leak occurs into the inhabited spaces of the ship,"

It only stores a fraction of the hydrogen vs. pure LHY. Why not just store it as liquid ammonia that would hold 170% of H at the same tank volume containing LHY? I would require such a ship to have fuel purifiers to do so.
 
DFW said:
Why not just store it as liquid ammonia that would hold 170% of H at the same tank volume containing LHY? I would require such a ship to have fuel purifiers to do so.
Chemistry is not my friend, so I am not sure whether it would work and
what the disadvantages might be, but it looks like a good idea for a hou-
se rule.
 
rust said:
Chemistry is not my friend, so I am not sure whether it would work and what the disadvantages might be, but it looks like a good idea for a house rule.

I'm familiar enough with chem. There is no problem as you are skimming ammonia from gas giants to get your Hydrogen in the 1st place. Pretty funny when you look at it that way. But, yes I'll do a house rule. This will enable more cargo space on ships.
 
There are many factors in storing hydrogen I would think, the only defined element is 1 displacement ton = 13.5 cubic meters. Is the displacement ton is 1000kg? What is the density/pressure placed on the gas? Is the hydrogen gas stored in some pressurized manner or mixed with some other stabilizing element.

I also remember somewhere that for space suits that vacuum proof/atmoshere proof was not necessarily hydrogen proof as hydrogen atoms are so small they could pass thru other atoms in suits or bind with other atoms, making hydrogen especially dangerous. What are fuel tanks made of to prevent leaking or is there an acceptable leak %?

Except for some general science classes in the '70, I am not formally educated in either physics and chemistry. Took one Astronomy class in jr college. Just what I read in books and see in TV (too much NOVA and PBS, no Discovery channel here).
 
Nathan Brazil said:
There are many factors in storing hydrogen I would think, the only defined element is

Actually, the most important point is precisely defined, -"Instead of storing the ship’s hydrogen in liquid form at extremely low temperature": LHY.
 
LH2 is required for Jump Drives. Ammonia cannot be 'purified' slowly and the LH2 fed into the Jump Drive since there is no 'surplus' tankage to store the bulkier LH2.

For the PP and a 'second jump', storing the surplus Hydrogen as a denser liquid makes perfect sense. Personally, I like WATER more than Ammonia - it has so many other benefits (drinking, hydroponics, O2 production).
 
atpollard said:
LH2 is required for Jump Drives. Ammonia cannot be 'purified' slowly and the LH2 fed into the Jump Drive since there is no 'surplus' tankage to store the bulkier LH2.

Neither can you slowly pull it from massive, VERY dense Metal hydride storage and feed it to the Jump Drive, but it does...

I too like water more but it skimming gas giants makes it more problematic. The tanks could be used for both as the purifiers handle both.
 
DFW said:
atpollard said:
LH2 is required for Jump Drives. Ammonia cannot be 'purified' slowly and the LH2 fed into the Jump Drive since there is no 'surplus' tankage to store the bulkier LH2.

Neither can you slowly pull it from massive, VERY dense Metal hydride storage and feed it to the Jump Drive, but it does...

I too like water more but it skimming gas giants makes it more problematic. The tanks could be used for both as the purifiers handle both.

I thought that the point of Metal Hydrides is that they can be heated to quickly release the hydrogen (weak bonds), while Ammonia and Water tend to release their hydrogen slowly and only after a great deal of coaxing (strong bonds).

For both systems (metal hydrides or denser liquids), I have no problem with using the magic 'purifier' as part of the process ... but you should then decide how quickly the JD needs that fuel purified and provide enough purifiers to meet that time frame. Big tanks and small purifiers or small tanks and big purifiers, but no free lunch.

Otherwise, just wave your hands, reduce fuel requirements and be done with it.
 
atpollard said:
I thought that the point of Metal Hydrides is that they can be heated to quickly release the hydrogen (weak bonds), while Ammonia and Water tend to release their hydrogen slowly and only after a great deal of coaxing (strong bonds).

Yes and no. Currently (our TL) we don't have the fuel purif's that Traveller does and, just as big a reason is that it is too hard to store as it takes a lot of power to keep it at the cryogenic temps required and requires expensive containers.

The "no" part is that it isn't that fast to release it from huge dense storage blocks.
 
DFW said:
It only stores a fraction of the hydrogen vs. pure LHY. Why not just store it as liquid ammonia that would hold 170% of H at the same tank volume containing LHY? I would require such a ship to have fuel purifiers to do so.

Ammonia is really not very pleasant. In the event of a leak into the habitable areas ammonia gas/liquid is an awful lot worse then hydrogen, which in very small quantites will just react with the oxgen in the air to form water. It only gets explosively flammable in much larger concentrations.

Material Safety Data Sheets:
Hydrogen
Ammonia

In the ammonia one, note this bit :- IHL-HMN TCLO 5000 ppm/5m (lowest published lethal concentration in a human by inhalation is 5 minutes exposure at 5,000 ppm - about 0.5% volume)
 
Can't really see why ammonia or water wouldn't work, though I'd not assume that it is ammonia being scooped; all four gas giants in our solar system's atmospheres are mainly molecular hydrogen and helium with only trace amounts of other gasses such as ammonia. One issue is that either you're going to have to scoop a LOT more to get the native ammonia, or have a store of sufficient nitrogen (presumably in liquid form) to store the scooped hydrogen with (which is hardly a deal breaker). I would think NH3 would be less dense than some of the metal hydrides that are solid at room temperature, however, so it may not be as efficient storage wise. If the de-hydrogenised material remains solid without freezing, that would be a point in its favour over liquid nitrogen.

From a frontier refuelling point of view, it's simpler and quicker to liquify the abundant H2, I'd have thought. However, water based storage would have efficiencies for ships refuelling on planets or ice planetoids.

I agree that we can pretty much assume some slick process to combine and release quickly for any of these options. Wave the fusion/gravitic magic wand if necessary :)
 
rinku said:
Can't really see why ammonia or water wouldn't work, though I'd not assume that it is ammonia being scooped; all four gas giants in our solar system's atmospheres are mainly molecular hydrogen and helium with only trace amounts of other gasses such as ammonia.

Yes, however the outermost layer of the atmosphere contains crystals of frozen ammonia.
 
DFW said:
rinku said:
Can't really see why ammonia or water wouldn't work, though I'd not assume that it is ammonia being scooped; all four gas giants in our solar system's atmospheres are mainly molecular hydrogen and helium with only trace amounts of other gasses such as ammonia.

Yes, however the outermost layer of the atmosphere contains crystals of frozen ammonia.

In what concentrations? I'm not saying you can't skim for it, just that it would be easier to skim for H2 and remove (or filter out while skimming) the He and trace chemicals than to skim for NH3. My understanding is that we're talking about 89% H2, 11% He and less than 1% other stuff.
 
DFW said:
I'm just digging into HG to look at capital ship design. Sorry if this is a question that has been asked and answered.

From the book: "Instead of storing the ship’s hydrogen in liquid form at extremely low temperature with a high risk of explosion if a leak occurs into the inhabited spaces of the ship,"

It only stores a fraction of the hydrogen vs. pure LHY. Why not just store it as liquid ammonia that would hold 170% of H at the same tank volume containing LHY? I would require such a ship to have fuel purifiers to do so.

Two points here.

Number one being the fact that storing via a matrix of metallic hydride doesn't explosively release as a result of combat damage. No big balls of burning hydrogen when you take a fuel hit. You get hydrogen release because the temp to release depending on the nature of the metallic part can be 120 °C (248 °F) - 200 °C (392 °F) which is easily possible with weapon hits but only the local area subject to that temp will release rather than an entire storage tank with a hole in it.

In game terms this reduces the loss of fuel from a fuel tank hit but doubles the volume of fuel, a fact which seems to have escaped the people who did the ship plans for ships with Metallic Hydride storage. Liner OO from Merchant Prince for example would take 312 Dtons to hold 156 Dtons of fuel in Metallic Hydride stores and cost Mcr62 which would consume the ships entire cargo allocation.

Secondly. Biiiiig can of worms here with Traveller fuel. You need fuel for two reasons, the jump bubble and power. Fusion power requires Deuterium to either fuse with itself or with Tritium.

A fusion reaction with D+D requires a significant expenditure of energy to ignite but once running produces energy happily as long as the D holds out. D+T is a more efficient energy producer but the difficulty here is the Tritium which is very rare naturally and needs to be manufactured.
It is also mildly radioactive (12 year half-life) and a D+T fusion reaction gives off free neutrons which will over time and build-up leave your power plant radioactive.

Allowing higher techs to be able to improve fusion reactions to the point where D+D is the one used you just need a source of the Deuterium. Deuterium is found naturally, most often with Hydrogen in the form of Hydrogen Deuteride or HD.

This can be scooped straight off a gas giant but needs to be filtered out from the mass of hydrogen around it then cracked to separate the Hydrogen from the Deuterium.

Deuterium exists as roughly 0.015% of Hydrogen and in a pure D+D fusion reaction you can find enough of the stuff in a gallon of seawater to produce the energy equivalent of 300 gallons of petrol (theoretically).

Buying refined power plant fuel at a starport or just cracking the stuff yourself will result in a Dton of hydrogen producing 0.15 litres of Deuterium which you use for fusion. Filtering the fuel load of even small ships will produce several cubic litres of D for the power plant and all the remaining H can be used for the jump bubble. Either Traveller fusion plants scoop and purify and then burn entire Dtons of Deuterium which is an insane amount of power generation or a single Dton of Deuterium will fuel your power plant of months or years. To produce a single Dton of

Deuterium would require scooping and filtering 6666 Dtons of Hydrogen which would take years for your 20 Dtons a day purification plant. It is more likely that a ships entire fuel load would be filtered to provide the Deuterium with everything else apart from the H then vented to space and what is left being the jump bubble H.

For the jump bubble part of the use you need a gaseous volume of H which can be released quickly to maintain the bubble volume as needed. If you have a jump event and burn off 10% of your jump bubble volume due to contact with a jump space matter or energy field then you need to be able to dump enough gaseous H into the jump field to make up for the loss in seconds.

You don't have the time for fancy cracking of chemicals to release the Hydrogen. It is entirely possible to have multiple tanks with one being the gaseous ready for use jump H and others holding the Hydrogen slush or liquid H or Ammonia etc. But then you are using Dtons for multiple tanks with several types of stored H which defeats the point.
 
Captain Jonah said:
Deuterium would require scooping and filtering 6666 Dtons of Hydrogen which would take years for your 20 Dtons a day purification plant. It is more likely that a ships entire fuel load would be filtered to provide the Deuterium with everything else apart from the H then vented to space and what is left being the jump bubble H.
According to the description in the rules a fuel processor does not filter
fuel out of something else, it processes the unrefined fuel into the same
amount of refined fuel. While I have no idea how this could be done, it
seems to turn normal hydrogen into the deuterium required by the reac-
tor.
 
Hydrogen is the lightest element on the periodic table with a mass of 1, it consists of a single proton.

Deuterium or heavy Hydrogen has a nuclear mass of two and consists of one proton and one neutron.

You could in theory make Deuterium by bombarding Hydrogen with free neutrons under controled conditions and get some deuterium out of it but you only need D for the power plant, the jump bubble uses normal H.

Since you can jump with unrefined fuel but with a risk of missjump you don't need refined fuel or D to jump with. I think most people accept that refining fuel is to get the rubbish (non H) out of it rather than gum up the works by having random chemicals or metals in your jump fuel.

The problem with making Deuterium is that you need a mass of energy to overcome the Coulomb barrier (the resistance of particles to being forced together) to force the Neutron to bind with the Proton to form Dueterium.
Nowhere do we actualy create Dueterium, we simply extract it fom places where it is found. Creating it is currently not doable on any kind of scale but certainly with advances in tech level it becomes easy to do on the sclae needed. Think small Nuclear power plant.

The effort required to create D makes it impractical if you use as much energy making it as you can from using it. Plus it is only needed for the power plant. Pure H is used for the jump bubble. You just need to clean it.

Fuel is one of, erm, a couple of areas where Traveller science is, erm, a bit odd. Handwavium getting in the way of 30 years of improved real world science and theory. Still it is a Science "Fiction" game :D
 
Captain Jonah said:
Fuel is one of, erm, a couple of areas where Traveller science is, erm, a bit odd. Handwavium getting in the way of 30 years of improved real world science and theory. Still it is a Science "Fiction" game :D

By the time we reach TL 10 we are using the p-p reaction rather than the pep reaction. Solved.
 
DFW said:
Captain Jonah said:
Fuel is one of, erm, a couple of areas where Traveller science is, erm, a bit odd. Handwavium getting in the way of 30 years of improved real world science and theory. Still it is a Science "Fiction" game :D

By the time we reach TL 10 we are using the p-p reaction rather than the pep reaction. Solved.

Possible as Traveller has both plasma and fusion weapons and so must be able to create small scale reactions.

This is even more theoretical than jump drives at present though as you need to accept that energy required to overcome the coulomb barrier is less than the end result of slaming those Protons together, plus it all depends on one of the protons becoming a Neutron by shedding a positron to form a stable atom of Deuterium which is then used in stage two of the P-P reaction rather than producing Helium-2 which ceases to exist as soon as the force holding the protons together stops.

Its a good theory, not sure at what tech level it crops up as by tech 9 we are likely to be using a D+T reaction (when they get it stable anyway).

Anyway its Traveller, wave your hands and it works :D :D :D
 
Captain Jonah said:
This is even more theoretical than jump drives at present though as you need to accept that energy required to overcome the coulomb barrier is less than the end result of slaming those Protons together,

See the Sun for a working example. Remember, one of the byproducts IS deuterium...
 
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