Merchants & Cruisers in Stock
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DFW said:
I frankly don't understand why everyone tolerates your attitude...
And if you are going to dish out such criticism, here's some for you:
Your deckplans are cluttered and too colorful. They'd never work in a published black & white book. It's impossible to tell at a glance what anything is. They are, in fact, too "detailed" and come across looking hacked together.
So, no, they aren't better. Frankly, I prefer even the simplistic deckplans in Merchants & Cruisers. It is not a "FACT", DFW, it is your OPINION. And my OPINION differs from yours.
If you don't see why it's rude to call one experienced poster a troll and tell a second one to beat it, then I'm sure you won't take offense at my post.
77thPatron
Mongoose
Just pickedup this book.. I'm on page three and I'm wondering why the deckplans are so incredibly horrid. The 10 ton fighter is a joke... Look up a rampart and compare it to this stupid thing. Amazing. Sleek, aerodynamic, agile...
The 10 ton fighter in this book like a fat flying pig. And somehow the pilot sits in a U shaped fusion drive.
This better get a lot better... and fast! My own fault for not checking on this book and reading this thread earlier. $18 wasted.
The 10 ton fighter in this book like a fat flying pig. And somehow the pilot sits in a U shaped fusion drive.
This better get a lot better... and fast! My own fault for not checking on this book and reading this thread earlier. $18 wasted.
apoc527 said:
I saw the deckplans you posted. This is kind of a bait and switch. These are NOT the crappy quality of the first few. My sample was based upon the first few. The FIRST ONES you will see if you open the book and start paging through it from front to back (page numbers help you with that too!).
So as far as I can tell you picked out one that WAS actually half-way decent. Which is good. But if only 1/3 of the plans are of that quality, then I still stand by my original statement. This is supposed to be a PROFESSIONALLY PUBLISHED PIECE OF WORK. And as such I expect a much higher level of image quality. If I want amateur crap, I'll do it myself. And that's free.
Treebore said:
I have been continually disappointed in some of the low-quality of work that has been published. Not ALL deckplans have been crap - at least not this level. I EXPECT more from them. I WANT more from them, and I'm willing to pay for that.
However I'm not willing to pay for crap.
But if you like paying for low-quality crap, bully for you! I for one will take my gaming dollars elsewhere on this book.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
DFW said:
Whoa!
That's a bit far.
Egil
apoc527 said:
I don't have the pdf, and frankly I'm not willing to spend the money on it at this point. Not with the production value levels.
I don't know how you can defend them. Even going back to the original Traveller books and supplements, you get far better work for deckplans. Why should we give Mongoose a break when they have such a rich legacy to draw upon? Hand drawn plans from 20 years ago are better than the ones I've seen. And today you have it much easier with CAD programs, re-usable images you can drop down, etc.
I guess I've been spoiled by SJG and GDW with their desire to put out quality work for the money.
But hey, we all get to spend our gaming dollars like we want.
It's a $15 PDF. I feel like I got very good value for that. I know exactly which deckplans are giving you fits. I'm not claiming that they are wonderful. I said that the author himself would admit that they aren't the most gorgeous deckplans on the market.
I guess where I'm coming from, which is games with no hint of deckplans, I'm just not too concerned about stylized, simplistic deckplans that still provide an internal layout.
Yes, the first fighter in the book is godawful ugly. But there are many ships that are gorgeous. And yes, that's worth $15 to me.
I guess where I'm coming from, which is games with no hint of deckplans, I'm just not too concerned about stylized, simplistic deckplans that still provide an internal layout.
Yes, the first fighter in the book is godawful ugly. But there are many ships that are gorgeous. And yes, that's worth $15 to me.
One final word on what is, after all, a matter of taste.
I don't feel the need to go off on a tangent about the perilous state of the RPG market because everyone is well aware. Mongoose relies on freelancers to do stuff like this. Andrew Welty and Ian Stead produced several dozen ships, complete with deckplans. They both post on these forums. We should thank them for their contribution to a game we all enjoy. If you don't like Andrew's or Ian's art style, then offer something you think is better. Maybe you can get published next!
Finally, I can understand why people quit writing for Traveller. With fans like these, *I* sure as Hell wouldn't put myself out there. That takes a lot of guts to do, and I, for one, am happy that Andrew and Ian did so.
I don't feel the need to go off on a tangent about the perilous state of the RPG market because everyone is well aware. Mongoose relies on freelancers to do stuff like this. Andrew Welty and Ian Stead produced several dozen ships, complete with deckplans. They both post on these forums. We should thank them for their contribution to a game we all enjoy. If you don't like Andrew's or Ian's art style, then offer something you think is better. Maybe you can get published next!
Finally, I can understand why people quit writing for Traveller. With fans like these, *I* sure as Hell wouldn't put myself out there. That takes a lot of guts to do, and I, for one, am happy that Andrew and Ian did so.
Jak Nazryth
Mongoose
(It is sometimes hard to "hear" the tone of a voice when reading their text, so please note that my tone is not loud, angry, or ranting, rather that it is even and factual)
As an Architect I pay attention to form, function, cool solutions to a design problem, and clarity / quality of graphics.
I've seen more thought and much better graphics out of first year design students. (true they are not designing space ships for a science fiction game)
This would never pass muster in my office, much less go out as a product for sale in the open market. If I presented a package of this quality in competition to a perspective client, we would not get the job.
That being said, some of the ships are helpful in populating the Traveller verse, but I think a simple text only write up would have been just as good.
And I do not know the first thing about the publishing industry associated with cost of development and production, so I may not know all the reasons why the graphic representations of many of these deck plans are so poor compared to the other Mongoose products. I'm not angry, but I am disappointed.
Again, this is only one opinion on a guy who might pay too much attention to graphics and detail.
Now, I do not have any deck plans published on my own (yet) so it may be a bit unfair for me to criticize another's work, when I have none to compare. I am working on that and need to find a medium for me to upload my work. I have a bunch of old printed and sketched plans, elevations, cross sections, wall sections, studies of what I call "multi-locks" (an airlock that can extend docking tube when at a high port, plus where the floor can descend to form a ramp when there is no docking port) I just need to scan and upload them to a graphic site I can link to.
Anyway. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I will take good honest criticism on my work once it goes up, but I'm sorry, as a professional, I think more attention should be shown on graphics when selling products to eager gamers. I will continue to purchase mongoose products, I only ask them to pay closer attention to their products in the future.
Thanks Mongoose for this forum and I hope the author of the book takes this as a professional critique and not a personal rant.
As an Architect I pay attention to form, function, cool solutions to a design problem, and clarity / quality of graphics.
I've seen more thought and much better graphics out of first year design students. (true they are not designing space ships for a science fiction game)
This would never pass muster in my office, much less go out as a product for sale in the open market. If I presented a package of this quality in competition to a perspective client, we would not get the job.
That being said, some of the ships are helpful in populating the Traveller verse, but I think a simple text only write up would have been just as good.
And I do not know the first thing about the publishing industry associated with cost of development and production, so I may not know all the reasons why the graphic representations of many of these deck plans are so poor compared to the other Mongoose products. I'm not angry, but I am disappointed.
Again, this is only one opinion on a guy who might pay too much attention to graphics and detail.
Now, I do not have any deck plans published on my own (yet) so it may be a bit unfair for me to criticize another's work, when I have none to compare. I am working on that and need to find a medium for me to upload my work. I have a bunch of old printed and sketched plans, elevations, cross sections, wall sections, studies of what I call "multi-locks" (an airlock that can extend docking tube when at a high port, plus where the floor can descend to form a ramp when there is no docking port) I just need to scan and upload them to a graphic site I can link to.
Anyway. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I will take good honest criticism on my work once it goes up, but I'm sorry, as a professional, I think more attention should be shown on graphics when selling products to eager gamers. I will continue to purchase mongoose products, I only ask them to pay closer attention to their products in the future.
Thanks Mongoose for this forum and I hope the author of the book takes this as a professional critique and not a personal rant.
Jak Nazryth
Mongoose
Just wanted to add, that most of the ships I have are based on other rule systems like GURPS and T20. Just need some time to convert to Mongoose.
apoc527 said:
You left out one glaring fact... this was a work for hire. These people were paid for their contributions. Now, had this been released free or as part of an eZine, then no, I would not feel the same way. After all, the maxim "you get what you pay for" would be appropriately applied were this released for free.
However, it was not. It's $15 for the PDF, and $25 (plus tax) for the printed book at my local game store. Ergo I do and should expect higher quality.
As for people who quit writing for Traveller because of criticism? I would like for you to point out where I attacked any singular person in any of my posts. I believe if you look closely you'll see that I ONLY referenced Mongoose... as a company. Never did I single out any individual.
And taking criticism in a public forum when you are the creator of something? Umm, don't we all do that simply by posting our own opinions and thoughts here? I've been bashed and complimented on these same forums. When you are an author you take that on yourself by publishing. If a person can't stand criticism, then don't put yourself out there as a target.
I don't think I was being unfair. There is a massive body of work out there to compare this release too. In my mind this comes in a little under the T4 illustrations. The only thing that makes T4 any better was at least they colored in the areas on the drawing with black. I think many of the symbols (like the multiple fusion plant icons) are just plain silly.
As I have said before I do want Mongoose to succeed, and the authors who create material to continue to do so. But as a person who pays for that material, I do think I have the basic right to expect a certain level of quality and production value for my money. They do not get a free ride, and nor should they. If they can't survive in the marketplace through competition and satisfying customers, then they deserve to go out of business. My customers won't buy from me if I can't deliver to them quality software on time, for a fair price, and that it works. Mongoose deserves to be held to the same standards.
Fin
Well as I said, it's a matter of taste. I was looking over the book again on my way to work, and I honestly like it. All of it. If it doesn't meet, your standards, don't buy it--simple as that.
I just don't like seeing a book bashed to pieces without being defended because the failure of just one book imperils the whole line. I like MGT, I support it, and sometimes that means buying books with parts you don't like. Let's face it, if we treated RPG companies with complete free market principles, most would go out of business. I guess I'm making a totally bizarre argument in favor of a "RPG tax" where you buy products to support a company even when the product doesn't thrill you completely, and before it gets too far, I'm just going to stop.
And besides, I like the book anyway.
I just don't like seeing a book bashed to pieces without being defended because the failure of just one book imperils the whole line. I like MGT, I support it, and sometimes that means buying books with parts you don't like. Let's face it, if we treated RPG companies with complete free market principles, most would go out of business. I guess I'm making a totally bizarre argument in favor of a "RPG tax" where you buy products to support a company even when the product doesn't thrill you completely, and before it gets too far, I'm just going to stop.
And besides, I like the book anyway.
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
I read M&C this week and enjoyed it. Found that time reading MgT stuff instead of watching 1 hours worth of News on BBC1 is a better use of my time. For me there are 3 factors that make books like this work: purpose of the vessel, floor plans and pictures (something I can show to my players).apoc527 said:Well as I said, it's a matter of taste. I was looking over the book again on my way to work, and I honestly like it. All of it. If it doesn't meet, your standards, don't buy it--simple as that.
And besides, I like the book anyway.
Yeah, I like the book too. The deck plans are very comparable to all of the past books, and since I expect simple black and white deck plans similar to what I have been seeing for Traveller for over 25 years now, I am happy with the book.
For those who want better, good luck finding them at a similar price, even GURPS won't give you better for the same price.
First time I have ever seen anyone called a "troll" for saying a product line is as good as it has ever been. Guess I just don't expect to get high level graphics with a low level budget. $25.00 is about as low level budget as it gets in todays industry. Especially for licensed products. Not to mention one that is 130 pages.
So definitely talk with your money, buy or don't buy. Obviously I got what I expected, so I am happy I bought. So I guess that means I am happy to be a "troll".
For those who want better, good luck finding them at a similar price, even GURPS won't give you better for the same price.
First time I have ever seen anyone called a "troll" for saying a product line is as good as it has ever been. Guess I just don't expect to get high level graphics with a low level budget. $25.00 is about as low level budget as it gets in todays industry. Especially for licensed products. Not to mention one that is 130 pages.
So definitely talk with your money, buy or don't buy. Obviously I got what I expected, so I am happy I bought. So I guess that means I am happy to be a "troll".
Treebore said:
I used to pay $20 for the GURPS books, which with inflation is about the same I pay for Mongoose today. To say that you couldn't find GURPS source books to be equivalent at the same price is disingenious at best.
I challenge you to find a GURPS book with lower production qualities. Cause I'm pretty sure I have them all and none of them have graphics of such low quality included in them.
To be fair, GURPS never put out a book similar to this one. So one cannot do a straight comparison of the two. Spread throughout the different books are deckplans. But, to the best of my knowldedge, none of them are as low quality as some of the ones in here.
Jak Nazryth
Mongoose
In my previous post I listed things that really dissapointed me after purchasing Merchants and Cruisers.
Now I would like to share my opinion with the author and youz guyz about what I do like.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Centaur class Mercenary Carrier. In fact, to start out my adventure I was planning on using the Leviathan 1200 ton Merchant cruiser, but this ship is so cool I may use it instead. You can easily turn half the fighter bay into a cargo bay etc... Or size up the ship by adding cargo modules along both sides.
I LOVE the 100 ton bounty hunter ship.
In fact, I am going to use it in my very first plot hook this up coming Tuesday night. Being a fan of Starwars (like most of us) I have always wanted to design a proper yet affordable bounty hunter ship for Traveller. Now I don't have to. It's done! The adventure starts by the owner of the shipyard (where my players are going to purchase and outfit their ship) will offer them a ship share on their very new "adventure class" ship, if they go and recover a ship who's owner has skipped out on payments. Enter the Bounty Hunter! If the players choose this plot hook, they get to track down, fight, and hopefully capture the bounty hunter, then bring back the ship undamaged to the shipyard.
Here are some other designs I like from Merchants and Cruisers.
All the vargr ships
The RX trader and Shakarka Class star Liner
Rhapsody Class Merchant Trader
100 ton stealth scout
100 ton heavy cutter
There designs are IMHO very nicely designed and graphically represented. I'm not sure why much of the rest fell off so dramatically, but I have a feeling it was time constraints, rushing at the last minute, and internal budgetary reasons to get the finished product into Mongoose per contract. Who knows, it's a wild guess.
Anyway, the stuff above are some really nice things the author produced from this book.
Jak
Now I would like to share my opinion with the author and youz guyz about what I do like.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the Centaur class Mercenary Carrier. In fact, to start out my adventure I was planning on using the Leviathan 1200 ton Merchant cruiser, but this ship is so cool I may use it instead. You can easily turn half the fighter bay into a cargo bay etc... Or size up the ship by adding cargo modules along both sides.
I LOVE the 100 ton bounty hunter ship.
In fact, I am going to use it in my very first plot hook this up coming Tuesday night. Being a fan of Starwars (like most of us) I have always wanted to design a proper yet affordable bounty hunter ship for Traveller. Now I don't have to. It's done! The adventure starts by the owner of the shipyard (where my players are going to purchase and outfit their ship) will offer them a ship share on their very new "adventure class" ship, if they go and recover a ship who's owner has skipped out on payments. Enter the Bounty Hunter! If the players choose this plot hook, they get to track down, fight, and hopefully capture the bounty hunter, then bring back the ship undamaged to the shipyard.
Here are some other designs I like from Merchants and Cruisers.
All the vargr ships
The RX trader and Shakarka Class star Liner
Rhapsody Class Merchant Trader
100 ton stealth scout
100 ton heavy cutter
There designs are IMHO very nicely designed and graphically represented. I'm not sure why much of the rest fell off so dramatically, but I have a feeling it was time constraints, rushing at the last minute, and internal budgetary reasons to get the finished product into Mongoose per contract. Who knows, it's a wild guess.
Anyway, the stuff above are some really nice things the author produced from this book.
Jak
I'm with you, Jak, re: all your comments as to what you like about M&C. I was absolutely tickled to see the Bounty Hunter in all its glory. I've loved that ship ever since it was first published in an old White Dwarf magazine. It just killed me that the WD didn't really show a good external graphic. Mongoose knocked it out of the park with its version.
I like some of the Aslan ships as well.
I like some of the Aslan ships as well.
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