Medical Care

[allanimal]

p.78 under Healing / Medical Care:

Medical care restores 2 + the Traveller’s END DM + the doctor’s Medic skill in characteristic points per day,

So, if a Traveller is shot and his END is 0 (DM -3) and is treated by someone with Medic 0:
2 + -3 + 0 = -1
So, they will actually get worse.

Or if their END is 1-2 (DM -2), and the medic 0, they can't get any better.

That doesn't seem right... Low or 0 END will happen often, since END is 1st to go.

Medikits don't help - they specifically apply only to 1st aid.

I guess the players better have a Medic 1 in the party or get used to hospital stays...

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Well, a bit of surgery before Medicare wouldn't be a bad idea, if possible.

On the other hand, someone with medic-0 isn't quite a practicing trauma surgeon or specialist, and not quite educated enough to deal with the long-term effects of gun wounds. Medic-0 would be more like "sure I've taken a first aid class and know CPR" if I'm not too mistaken?

Also, wouldn't a proper medbay of some sort give some form of +DM? Must be better than just lying down in one's stateroom.

Edit: what I meant to say was simply that a level 0 medic simply doesn't have the skills to treat the long-term effects of a serious gun wound. At best, the character could offer some aid and soothing (the injured character loses less points when treated by a medic-0 than someone untrained (-3)), but with the right tools and aid, this can be mitigated.

 

[allanimal]

Well, a bit of surgery before Medicare wouldn't be a bad idea, if possible.

Not if only one or two stats are damaged. And that same medic-0 is almost guaranteed to make things much worse with surgery. At least surgery is based in the skill check and not the skill level, so positive DMs and boons can help.

Also, wouldn't a proper medbay of some sort give some form of +DM? Must be better than just lying down in one's stateroom.

Maybe. But I didn't see anything in the books that modified ones skill level. No mention of benefits of sickbays or medical bays is discussed, only that they are needed.

Edit: what I meant to say was simply that a level 0 medic simply doesn't have the skills to treat the long-term effects of a serious gun wound. At best, the character could offer some aid and soothing (the injured character loses less points when treated by a medic-0 than someone untrained (-3)), but with the right tools and aid, this can be mitigated.

That may be so, but medical care is not based on a skill roll. It is based solely on the injured person's END DM (which will almost always be low at the start) and the medic skill level of the doctor. Should it not be a skill check? If not, I think a competent medic-0 should be able to prevent someone from getting worse. I'm ok with them not healing, but keeping them stable seems like it should be reasonable for someone with medical training.

Someone with no medical skill has the same chances as a medic-0. Since it is not a skill check, there is no -3 penalty. Or? This should be clarified.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I would be quite happy with unskilled/poorly trained people making things worse in this area. A Medic 0 guy should really not be doing surgery on someone near death...

Happy to hear opposing views!

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I would be quite happy with unskilled/poorly trained people making things worse in this area. A Medic 0 guy should really not be doing surgery on someone near death...

Happy to hear opposing views!

Oh, I definitely agree! A skill level means so much more than just the modifier added to the 2D roll to see if a character succeeds. Merely possessing a skill at a certain level means having a certain amount of knowledge, prior experience and general know-how. That's what I meant above when I wrote that the medic's skill is too low, (s)he simply does not posses the knowledge to treat the long-term effects.

An example: assume I have medic-0. Poor msprange gets shot (sorry!). I can without too much trouble stop the bleeding and tend to the wound by applying first aid. I could try to do some stitching and internal messy stuff to close the wound with surgery, but it's quite likely I just make it worse. By taking more time and making sure I have the best tools available I might get a boon, and an assistant would give me a task chain bonus.

When it comes to long-term treating the wounded, my medic-level of 0 just isn't enough to deal with all manners of infections, internal bleeding, exotic bacteria from the planet where he was shot and so on... I don't know what to do, what medicine to apply and so on. All I can do is make sure Matt rests, and give him some painkillers for the pain and fever. In game terms, due to his END being 0, he keeps getting worse, but my medic 0 slows the progress (he heals 2 + END + medic per day, which is 2 + -3 + 0, rather than 2 -3 -3 if I was untrained) so with a little luck he'll survive until we can get to a proper doctor/hospital.

Thanks to my (limited) medic skills, Matt will now live long enough to release the beta version of High Guard, wherein we will find out if the medbay in our ship gives a bonus to med care

 

[allanimal]

The text is not clear to me that the -3 penalty for no skill applies or if someone without medic can even try.

I am definitely ok with surgery having potential to really make it worse.

I guess you have convinced me on the medical care as well.
Though I would like to see an option that allows a medic to keep someone stable - the fact that as it is now, worsening is automatic is what bothers me. And no gear or drugs in the core book will help with the death spiral.

I know medical care hasn't changed from 1st Ed, but the changes to first aid in 2nd Ed means this is going to come up much more often. This never came up in my 1st Ed games, because the crew had a medic-3 on board and always blew away his 1st aid checks. That player has moved away now (and the character is retired) and now the next best medic looks pathetic in comparison with only 1x effect and needing to be done within 1 minute of the injury.

I'm ok with the first aid changes. I just foresee more dead PCs...

 

[grauenwolf]

Well, a bit of surgery before Medicare wouldn't be a bad idea, if possible.

Not if only one or two stats are damaged. And that same medic-0 is almost guaranteed to make things much worse with surgery. At least surgery is based in the skill check and not the skill level, so positive DMs and boons can help.

It doesn't say you can't use surgery with only two damaged stats. It just says that must use it if you have three down.

But this is weird...

Surgery restores characteristic points just like
first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses more
characteristic points equal to 6 - the Effect of the Medic
check.

So I barely fail my roll and get a -1 effect. My patient loses 6 - (-1) = 7 points. That's pretty harsh.

Or maybe I got the math wrong and it is 6 - 1 = 5 points lost. But then I roll again and get a -4 effect. That would be 6 - 4 = 2 points lost. So that can't be right.

 

[hdan]

So I barely fail my roll and get a -1 effect. My patient loses 6 - (-1) = 7 points. That's pretty harsh.

I agree that this rule needs an example, considering the range of mathematical ability in the players we'll have.

"6 - (-1) = 7" is most likely the right answer, but even adding the sentence, "For example, a Traveller who rolls a 6 on the Medic check (effect -2) will cause 8 points of damage."

 

[MongooseMatt]

Again, happy to hear contrary views on this - but right now I am still of the mind that botched surgery should be really harsh!

 

[-Daniel-]

Again, happy to hear contrary views on this - but right now I am still of the mind that botched surgery should be really harsh!

Botched Surgery maims and kills people today, not sure why it shouldn't do so in the future.

What might make sense is if the cost is tied to how badly it is botched. a miss by one pip is different if missed by six pips kind of thing. But either way, I agree botched surgery should have a price.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Surgery restores characteristic points just like
first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses more
characteristic points equal to 6 - the Effect of the Medic
check.

I think the problem here is how the wording is being interpreted.

I believe the INTENT is that if you fail the check, the damage is 6 - EFFECT. Since the EFFECT will be negative (you failed the check), that means you will ALWAYS take at least 7 points of additional damage from a failed Surgery.

Example 1: I barely fail the check: Effect: -1 (missed it by THAT much)
DAMAGE = 6- (-1) = 7 points of damge

Example 2: I REALLY screw the pooch: Effect -6
DAMAGE = 6 - (-6) = 12 points of damage (I probably killed him).

So the use of the 6 minus Effect is correct, because if you fail, your Effect is always negative...

 

[grauenwolf]

Again, happy to hear contrary views on this - but right now I am still of the mind that botched surgery should be really harsh!

Traveller is meant to be a brutal game, but given that you don't go into surgery unless you are almost out of HP I still think 6+ is a bit over kill. Even 3+effect dmg will be enough to kill most people under the knife, no need to rub salt in the wound.

In any event, please include an example in the text to make the math clearer.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

I agree that someone with Medic-0 shouldn't be doing surgery. But not First-Aid either? That's just silly.

Someone with Medic-0 should be able to apply bandages, tourniquets, topical blood clotting agents, and what-have-you to keep the patient from bleeding out. While it shouldn't necessarily improve the patient's condition, it should certainly impede the loss of life on a successful roll. Tourniquets and bandages are often improvised from rope, articles of clothing, and so on, and as such, shouldn't count as an equipment bonus without some sort of medicine included.