Matt S./ V1.1 Comments/Suggestion

[katadder]

I love my dargans. use them more than primus and so far more than liatis. they are fairly fast and have good forward firepower plus some flank stuff if needed.
liati can be tough against certain opponents but fighting others it can be quite weak. 4 light raiders for the cost of it will tear it a new one, same as 2 shadow scouts.
its about on par with the WS gunship due to having more accurate firepower but without the adaptive armour and the rutarians are about on par with the WS fighters.

agreed that the only ship needing boosting in the centauri is the octurian and this really only needs a 24" beam.

 

[Triggy]

Absolutely with respect to the Xaar! Horridly overgunned. Do this, and you fix another of my 20!

Seriously, of my 20, you're fixing a lot of them with this release (I think...)

Gaim (all)...........maybe check
Demos...............check
Shadow Fighter...check (and maybe more!)
Bimith................check
Shadowfury........check
Shadow Stalker...check
Milani...................???
Whitestars..........check
Tzymm...............well, you're doing the Xeel instead, OK
Haltona...............
Xonn...................
Xaar...................check (I hope!)
Lakara.................???
Jashakar Tae......
G'Vrahn..............check
G'Quan...............check
Bluestar..............
Amu...................check
Octurion.............
Sulust................

(as best as I remember them, mostly in order). 14 of 20 is pretty decent. My current honorable mentions -- they change -- after these included the War-level Carriers (Poseidon and Cidikar), the Mankhat, the Nightfalcon, the Ochliavita, the Mograth, the Shadow Omega, the Darkener, the Xaak, the Rongoth-T'Loth-G'Sten-G'Quan complex, the Vorchan, the Xixx, the Kamare Sas, the Ma'cu, and the Saggittarius.

You even got some of the honorable mentions!

Well I'm glad we're addressing most of them (our lists match up on about 80% of the ships).

The Blue Star won't be changing any time soon (many players think it's fine) but I for one could stand to see it go down to Dodge 4+ (yes, I think it's that good).

Jashakar Tae - Probably could do with a little something, what would you suggest?

Haltona - It's a very hit or miss ship. This is part of what I feel balances it out. However it's definitely a very good ship still in my eyes.

Xonn - Another ship I'm not too worried about for two reasons - firstly it's Battle PL and therefore not as high a priority as some other ships and secondly it has a turret arc which is a massive weakness in a Battle PL ship.

Milani - Good ship but with only Kothas on board it isn't above average - against ships with real range it struggles like the rest of the Abbai.

Lakara - Maybe it could do with something but it's not a major priority.

Octurion - Same as the Lakara.

Sulust - I'm not even sure whether you think it's over or under powered...

Ochlavita - I'd love to see the non-command ship get a single flight of fighters.

Sagittarius - this is a ship many think is overpowered and I'm not really of that opinion although can see against certain opponents that it's the initial barrage that does the damage and it doesn't matter if it gets to fire again. You could make it so that they can't take variant missiles. If not this, a simple reducing the side guns to 5AD could do it.

I think as you point out with your honourable mentions, these are not the greatest priority ships and if only some are fixed (at least the popular ones!) then the game will not suffer too much.

 

[H]

it does of course depend on your notion of "fixing" them. :wink:

I'm surprised AGAIN to see the milani, this is a superb little ship, why do people keep saying otherwise, honestly, O really just don't get the whole abbai are weak stuff, naff fighters and the bimith needed help but otherwise great fleet. Can agree mostly on the others, G'Quan fix seems a little naff, and the octurion should just get a beam range boost, or some torps. the Haltona, I agree, it can be devastating if it gets a good beam off, but then so can the var'nic, hyperion and suluust with 4 dice beams every round instead of a 5 dice every other.

 

[CZuschlag]

We have, in the neighborhood, got the Cincinnati group with an Abbai wizard. I want to see him at work; perhaps our experiences with the Abbai are totally off. This is a distinct possibility that small local groups could cause, so it has to be investigated.

The Abbai get question marks because the evaluation of the Abbai is ongoing locally. We have high hopes.

Jashakar Tae --- I see this as the ACTA Hermes reborn, and that's just a bit much. Perhaps swapping the forward bolter array for a forward Energy Pulsar (swaps AP, DD, MoD for TL, MoD). I find the energy pulsar far too underused in the Dilgar Fleet.

We disagree about the vulnerability of T arcs on the Xonn. I see it as a massive advantage, especially with the Vree CQ bonuses on repairs + All Hands on Deck.

Sulust --- Too much range! Reduce to range 18. (IMHO).

Ochliavita --- Very fair suggestion from awhile ago; makes me wish I came up with it.

Saggitarius --- Listed because when I field it with multiple different variant loadouts in different arcs, my opponents groan. And I can see why. The complaint I heard is that it is a Swiss Army Knife, with the right tool for the job at every range. Understood. Not sure what to do here, either, frankly. Very low priority for me now, anyways.

Blue Star --- We agree totally. Your suggestion singlehandedly solves the ship.

 

[Da Boss]

Is there any idea of how much longer we have to "assist" in the way we have been?

IMHO it has been a useful exercise - and I hope that Matt et al feel the same. :?:

but I presume sometime soon a limit to our input will be come so that layout etc can begin? Any idea on a time limit?

My biggest worries / concerns / desires (yes very self indulgent I know) at this time are:

!) The Space Station rules - just busted at present, cool idea but.......major major changes needed

White Star nerf - It seems to encourage the wrong style of play - sit back and snipe- is this what is actaully wanted? If so who by? the Knife fighter is apparently out - but I feel something else is better than this - although I am happy with it as is - esp if ISA Allies go.........

G'Quan and the Narn - the CBD is probably just a bit to much across the fleet and does nothing to help the problem ships. The G'Quan needs more love - (god I am going to be sick, I hate the Narn! :wink: )

Centauri - Thats better - does anyone like the Hunting pack or indeed has tried it? Immodestly I think my "Damn the Engines, bring us about!" SA is characterful and helps the Bigger ships a bit. We need very little but a little love for the Octurion would be nice too. Amar is cool.

Shadow Skirmish various fun ideas floating about - cool ideas - any likely to be taken up or is this a PL hole that is destined (unlike the Vorlon one) to be left?

Vorlons - Great a Raid ship but why not a useful War or Armged ship - make it a big carrier.............the present ship is a waste of space.

Psi Corps - the Shadow Omega with shields would help - Triggy's tweeeks would just be better.

Drazi - a proper fix for the Fire Raptor please - the present one is insultingly bad. I still don't like Attack Run for same reasons as Katadder. If noty make them a huge fleet carrier on the same hull - they need it and it would fit with a race who love fighters?

Earth Alliance - prefer something else other than yet another race gets emines for EA - again my Offensive Interceptors was well liked :wink: If not not against Nukes per se but can they be something other than emines? please

AOL / League / ISA allies - :?: I would like a competative AOL list, the ability for a League race to either take other League allies or ISA (not both) with a minor In penalty. I think the ISA can stand on its own - it has more ships than some others...............just getting a new one as well.

Drakh - the AF pulse on the forum seemed fun........

Minbari - hmm the Web of death seems characterful and cool name.

Raiders - I do like customisation but lets let them do it to League ships or give them weaker versions to start / generic hulls to build on.

Dilgar - give em a fighter flight on the Oclivita, its one line - maybe even a light carrier like the Amar?

 

[Ripple]

Raiders - we can't let the raiders have better variants than the parent race. That goes under the catagory of insulting, and eventually you'll see the parent ship get 'downgraded' because the raiders could take and make it gross.

Stations - same issues as DeBoss... small ones in particular.

White star - not the worst thing that can happen to the ship, but does seem to encourage a long distance approach.

Drazi - would rather see them get nothing than get a half cooked idea that rarely works and then for negligible damage. It either has to be commonly successful, or damaging... another weak unreliable attack doesn't cut it.

Abbai - like the changes to the bimith, still think they need a raid level hull that you want to take more than one of. I don't like mines... but at least they try to deal with the 'overfly' issue that comes with such a small threat sphere.

Ripple

 

[H]

I am just re-working my milani varient at raid (it was a bit tough) I don't expect it will ever be official, but as a house ruled ship it's quite nice

 

[Cavalier1645]

I use both the Liati ALOT - love it (not the model though) it works well with the fast Centauri ships and has all those cool abilities.

The Primus I had ignored but actually LDTD got me to use them and I have found it a good solid ship - in a big battle I take both.

Dargan not really used - its looks great and should be ok but the other two get used instead.......

the only "bad" ship I feel in the Centauri fleet is the Octurion as the only war level choice its just not that good.............not Fire Raptor bad by any means but just on the poor side so I don't really use it. (bit more range
on the beam may cover it, 1 dice interceptor would be very nice............)

Yes Love the Liati, it fragile, but Agile (hey that rhymes). Its only problem is lack of interceptors, but i make it up with by sticking Maxiumus Frigates with it.

The Primus is a solid ship, lots of short range firepower, needs escorts though. Thens to get torn up in fights with Earth (Third age, Crusade), Minbari, and the ancient races. Good ship. it just got llimitations like any other ship. Its slow, can't manuever to save its life, and it weapon are short. it can take a hit ( 50+ damage, 6 hull). I don't use it because my fleet is a Centauri Harrier (Strike) Fleet and speed is life in my fleet. Also I tended to buy Sulust Escort Frigates cause I got more damage points and better battle laser (24") on two sulusts for same price as a Primus. Only improve on it is to give it intercetors to improve its tankiness, but its not really necessary.

Dargan: No big fan of Stealth, and the Stealth on a Dargan is too low for me (I play with people who actually use scouts and other means to break stealth) Its too fragile to toe to toe with most other cruisers.

The Octurion: As I tolf one friend in the Earth-Centauri Campaign, Iam only buying the Octurion for command +2 and it ability to smash planetary defenses (with mass drivers). Other than that, can't see much use of the Octurion. It way too slow, Its a fire magnet, Can't Really play with ships in its Priority Level (and some ship at Battle level), The only changes it think it needs is either in crease its speed and/or manueverabilty so it can actually use it weapons or give it longer range weapons,

Not at all that please about the Demos nerfing, but ill live, it still a viable ship (at least until some more people whine about how a squadron of demos destroyed my War level
in one turn).
Other than that the centauri are fine

Oh wait i know another reason to use a octurion, it got a nice recliner in it

Your better off in Liat (it still got leather bucket seats)i with a maxiumus escorting you

 

[katadder]

maximus slows down a liati too much. better off with a GEG refit from one off campaign weekends

 

[silashand]

Dargan: No big fan of Stealth, and the Stealth on a Dargan is too low for me (I play with people who actually use scouts and other means to break stealth) Its too fragile to toe to toe with most other cruisers.

I used a Dargan in a tournament over the past weekend and I have to agree, its stealth is a little too low to make it useful vs anyone who uses scouts (which seems to be most people, even if only for the potential re-roll on the first turn initiative (or to possibly deny it to their opponent)). I know the stealth is *supposed* to compensate for its other disadvantages, but I don't think it's enough really. I like that it's fast, but it also has a relatively low number of hull points which means when it does take a hit, it gets hit pretty hard. It also doesn't *seem* to be able to hit that hard in return, but then by the time I got in close for its secondaries I'd already taken too much damage so it never really got to do much. I love the model (looks *way* better than a Liati IMO), but I'm not sure I'll use it much in the future.

Cheers, Gary

 

[JTL109]

Boy, please don't do this to my Vree... With dodge on every ship, these guys would only occupy a display case and no one would play against me.

In truth, we could give every vree ship dodge; it would make a sort of sense too. The ability to move without any inertia would make it easy to avoid incoming fire. That said, in an attempt to balance these ships with everyone else, we would have to loose something else; perhaps loose our double and triple damage as a way to compensate?

Blech... This would take tons of play testing and we have bigger fish to fry. Perhaps in the next edition...

-----
The suggestion is already balanced, the spread of E-mines throughout
the major fleets means that more than half of the Vree fleet classes
are hit on a 3 or 2, this combined with the lower than average
hits mean that the Vree do not last long by themselves. The Vree
scout mormally dies on the second hit (at most) as it only has 10 hits and
most E-mines are DD and sealth is not any protection.

 

[Da Boss]

how is it balanced against non emine fleets? :?

 

[Ripple]

DaBoss has asked the right question...

As to stealth... I stated this back in the day when they bumped up the stealth on the Minbari and put the new rules out. It made low level stealth really questionable. It can be game winning... I've had a couple of recent games that went to crap due to a slew of '1's for stealth, but it isn't reliable, which becomes the 'unfun' rule issue.

Stealth should have changed to a reduction of effect rule rather than a do/do not rule. Then moderate stealth could have had a role. As is moderate stealth often feels like a penalty inflicted rather than a bonus.

Ripple

 

[skavendan]

how is it balanced against non emine fleets? :?

It's called screwing Psi Corp yet again lol Which everyone thinks is fair because everyone knows the Corp is evil.

 

[CZuschlag]

I was trying to keep my comments in a comments thread and not this one but ...

Dodge?
Vree?
Laugh!

If you need Dodge to win with the new Vree --- take up another race. Seriously. They absolutely do not need even a 20% boost, much less more.