Maps maps maps

[rgrove0172]

What exactly is the thought on the relatively poor, and often missing, maps in the Mongoose products? Ive heard about this since I came on board a year or so ago and I have to admit, now that I own every Conan related project the company has produced, I would have to agree. In an otherwise excellant line its seems odd that something like the maps should bring it down. Does anyone have an explanation?

 

[Yogah of Yag]

I'm not too worried. I can homebrew maps as needed.
It is really quite silly to be hot under the collar about maps of an IMAGINARY place and time. :shock: :lol: Yes, you heard me correctly: imaginary. Hyboria did not really exist.
I'm afraid the most I can do map-wise are simple things with Photoshop. (I wonder what software they used with Ruins...)
I would prefer some hand-drawn maps on parchment paper, as if they had come from an ancient scroll or dusty codex, rather than the overly colourful, highly textured, computer-generated maps.
One of my first experiences with RPG in the very early 80's was spending months designing a map of my campaign (which didn't really get off the ground anyway. :x )

 

[Valaryc]

sorry yogah....but there is a major point in this whole map story....

WE F***** PAY FOR THE MAPS TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!


same goes for proofreading !!!!!!
for example...i was shocked after my first reading of the Black Kingdoms "campaign"....even more after finding a name responsible for proofreading... what the hell did this guy to earn his money ??? only reading the title ?

sorry.....mongoose has a lot of good people writing for them....and the whole company lives ONLY through the enthusiasm of his authors (mainly Vincent for the Conan line! cheers to you Vincent!)...they don't make any good points if it comes to "quality managment"...sorry...but you can't deny it! it doesn't matter how often you show your friendship / loyalty / happiness / enthusiasm / fetish for mongoose....they can do it much better on the sector "professionality" ! other medium to major companies don't make this kind of faults again and again !

i own every product of the Conan line....so i am a loyal addict like many other guys....but i haven't lost my realistic sight of things and i am not alone.....

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...5&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

 

[Yogah of Yag]

No need to get bent out of shape.
If Mongoose makes a smart decision their editorial standards will be vastly improving in the near future. :wink:

 

[Valaryc]

so you are looking for a job ? :wink:

 

[Auggie]

Not to be a weenie, but while I think the lack of detail on some maps is...lacking, I have absolutely no problem making due with the map located on the inside covers of the Atlantean Edition.

I know that does not detail each individual country, and it would be great to have really good maps, but again, I make due. I truly share folks' complaints about this subject- I'm just thankful we still get a great product from the fine people at Mongoose

 

[rgrove0172]

Heres my main complaint. What happens to my homemade maps once Mongoose does come out with a detailed regional map? Ive been fleshing out the area surrounding my player;s travels for example and will have a touch decision should more detailed and conflicting maps appear later on. Do I really want to ignore them and possibly their effect on future adventures and such, or so I skip midstream over to the official maps and render the details weve fashioned mute?

 

[Amonakra]

Heres my main complaint. What happens to my homemade maps once Mongoose does come out with a detailed regional map? Ive been fleshing out the area surrounding my player;s travels for example and will have a touch decision should more detailed and conflicting maps appear later on. Do I really want to ignore them and possibly their effect on future adventures and such, or so I skip midstream over to the official maps and render the details weve fashioned mute?

Well, you can always look at it like this, Rgrove0172, maps up until relatively recent history were never exact. Maps were drawn, then copied by hand, the differences between your maps and the ones that Mongoose puts out could easily be explained by the differences of interpretations of the cartographers. Who is to say that for your game that the map produced from Mongoose was even "charted" by someone from the area, so the over all geography might be known, but the individual villages and geographic features might only be known by those who have actually been there. Also, distances were often charted by guess of time travelled. Perhaps one map maker's horse was quicker than the next, so the distance might be calculated to be shorter. Perhaps the cartographer's guide avoided a village or two because he had previously developed a bad reputation, so instead of facing up to his problems, he merely told the cartographer from Aquilonia that there was nothing but endless sand dunes for a hundred leagues in that direction. After all, it was not that long ago that our nautical maps read "the end of the world" or "there be dragons here".

Amonakra

 

[Arcadayn]

It is extremely depressing to have such poor maps in an otherwise quality line. Sure I can make up my own. Heck, I ran a Hyborian campaign for years with nothing but the old GURPS sourcebook. Subsequently, one of the main reasons I buy material is so that I don't have to spend time making maps.

One would think that with all of the complaints and issues that Mongoose has had that they would do something about it. Unfortunately, they do not appear to care.

 

[Faraer]

Most of the modern Hyborian Age maps are built on firm foundations but shaky middle floors -- mistaken ideas of the geography come from hearsay and Chinese whispers. Before pastiche details can be added and new ones made, we need a solid base map, based on Howard's originals and extrapolations from a very careful reading of the stories. The pretty current 'official' map (first seen in Road of Kings) is a good deal less accurate than the one in the Lancer/Ace paperbacks.

 

[The King]

The German publisher of Gurps (Pegasus) produced a colour map for Gurps Conan (nothing to do with the map inside the book).
It is very heavy with details and I thought at the beginning it was too much. Then with time it is very cleverly done. It include many pastiche works with the cities and town, the regions, the river names, nation names, names of tribes, ruins (with specific legends), geographical names, etc.

 

[argo]

Of everything that has ever gone wrong with the Conan line, the maps are the only thing that really sticks in my craw. Even the first edition typos ("Spellbo.oks" anyone?) got little more than a passing roll of the eyes from me but the first edition world map, with pastures in Stygia and desert in Hyborian lands, that kept me up at night.

I LOVE good maps. As a GM they give me a better sense of the world and more adventure ideas than a thousand words of fluff. I use them as camaign bible, notebook and inspiration all at once. I like to show them to my players at the table.

The biggest disapointment was the Shadizar map. Now I am not talking about the plagarism issue. I can not expect the editors at mongoose to be familiar with every fantasy map ever put up on the 'net and to recognize a dupe when the see it. They trusted the artist and he lied to them.

No, what I am talking about is the fact that the plagarized map sumbited looks absoluetly nothing at all like Shadizar. Not even a little bit. It doesn't match anything written about the city before, it doesn't match the fluff text from the box set itsef and above all it does not look anything like what one pictures in their mind when they think of "Shadizar" The map is of "Generic Fantasy City With Canals" (which is, of course, what it was designed to look like).

Didn't the editors look at the map before they sent the box set to press? Didn't sombody say "Uh, guys? This doesn't look like what Shadizar ought to look like"

I don't think that the did. I don't think that the editors do look at the maps when designing a new book. I think that they spend time and effort on layout and art but they only say "Page 89 will have a map that is 4 inches by 3 inches" and then drop it in at the last second like clip art without looking at it. I don't think that they really do make the maps an integrated part of the design process from day one. Otherwise the Shadizar map would never have made it to print regardless of weither it was stolen or entirely origional.


Please, please Mongoose. If you resolve to improve only one aspect of the line then please do better with the maps.

 

[Valaryc]

nice speech Argo !!! and you're totally right !!!

let us hope somebody on the "upper managment sphere" is reading this ... and is willing to to do something

 

[rgrove0172]

I suppose Im a little naive but Id like to think that the guys working on the various projects at Mongoose actually have an interest in the topic. Granted Im sure not every guy behind a desk with a Conan RPG assignment in his "inbox" is a Howard fan but surely someone, epecially in editing, is. I would think the complaints we are seeing would be obvious to anyone with a passing interest in the genre and certainly should be reallized on thier end. Im a little mystified that they arent.

 

[Arcadayn]

I suppose Im a little naive but Id like to think that the guys working on the various projects at Mongoose actually have an interest in the topic. Granted Im sure not every guy behind a desk with a Conan RPG assignment in his "inbox" is a Howard fan but surely someone, epecially in editing, is. I would think the complaints we are seeing would be obvious to anyone with a passing interest in the genre and certainly should be reallized on thier end. Im a little mystified that they arent.

I wouldn't hold my breath. We're going on five years and almost 25 books and STILL having map issues. I guess since the books are still selling well there's nothing to fix. :?

 

[The King]

I wouldn't hold my breath. We're going on five years and almost 25 books and STILL having map issues. I guess since the books are still selling well there's nothing to fix. :?

It is more because there is nothing else for Conan on the market.

I generally agree with the thread and with Argo. The maps were often an problem and it is all the more a pity that they showed us they could produce excellent maps (like in the "road of kings").
Shadizar's map was a disaster and Messantia's is not particularly beautiful.

However I noticed that when Vincent (Darlage) provided his own map material (temples, cities, etc.), firstly they were excellent (he is quite an able drawer) and secondly there were no incoherence between the text and what we see.

I don't know if Vincent will provide further books for Conan (I hope anyway) but it would be great if each author would also provide his own map material, even though it has to be improved afterwards.

 

[argo]

I don't know if Vincent will provide further books for Conan (I hope anyway) but it would be great if each author would also provide his own map material, even though it has to be improved afterwards.

Or even if they would do more to integrate the map artists and the authors. We have several instances where the maps simply do not match the text of the book they are printed in. This makes me think that the map artists are contracted early on and the finished product simply droped into the book at the very end. The mongoose editors should be checking the maps for quality and if needed make revisions like they do the interior art and the text.

Its a shame really since the rest of the art for the line has been quite good and the writting on the line has been excellent (typos notwithstanding). I really would love to see more attention paid to this area.

 

[emirikol]

Ok, I'm jumping on the bandwagon here. I think the poor quality maps and lack of maps really deal a severe blow to the credibility of the setting.

Evidently words are cheap, but maps must cost too much or something. Maybe there's too much sentiment by REH-purists that having any map couldn't possibly meet their dogmatic standards and hence no map is better than a slightly innacurate map...but you can't tell me that if Zamboula is a 'little' too far north on some piece of parchment THAT justifies sitting on markered thumbs!

jh

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