Manta Ray fast cruiser

[Tinfish]

Are the stats and points cost for the Manta Ray fast cruiser correct in the pocket rule book?

I cannot see how this ship is worth 15 points more than the Chicago, especially as it has lost the Enhanced bridge and 2 Phaser 3's. On top of this the Constitution & Wolverine cost the same and have similar differences to the NCL/NCF.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Try it in battle - we are seeing people have a lot of good fortune with Fast ships round these parts! It is one of those ships that, on paper, has you scratching your head but, on the table, everything starts to make sense!

 

[Myrm]

Hmm Manta is [editted after Big D's comment]205points in the main rulebook and the Chicago 190 - I dont see either errata'ed. FOr weapons the Manta drops 2 photons and a drone and gains 2 Phaser 1s for the Phaser3s [Another edit see Big Ds post below for my screwup]....

Don't underestimate speed and what it does for you. The larger phaser 1 suite means more firepower when running at full speed under power drain as well. That speed means saves vs seeking weapons as well

 

[Rambler]

In addition to the Photon for Phaser swap. The Manta Ray swaps the Enhanced Bridge trait for the Fast trait and loses 2 Phaser 3s. Not sure that should make it 10 points less than a Chicago but nor do i see it being worth more than a Wolverine either. Just the way the point system works I guess.

 

[The Big D]

Hmm Manta is 180points in the main rulebook and the Chicago 190 - I dont see either errata'ed. FOr weapons the Manta drops 2 photons and a drone and gains 2 Phaser 1s - I don;t see them with less Phaser3s - both have 2 x 1AD T arc systems.

Don't underestimate speed and what it does for you. The larger phaser 1 suite means more firepower when running at full speed under power drain as well. That speed means saves vs seeking weapons as well

I have both books here and the manta is 205 in both! The wolverine, fast version of the constitution, is 180.

I'm a big fan of the wolverine. Same points as the constitution and if you take the approach the phasers are the primary weapon of the feds and photos more for coup de grace or opportunity fire then you swap 2 photons for better arc phasers and get fast in as well with a slight wiggle of the side phaser arcs!

This is where I see a lot of the confusion over the manta comes from. Compared to it's base ship it does the same photon phaser swap as the wolverine but loses 2 phaser 3s and the enhanced bridge for the gain of fast. All for 15 more than the base hull!

Its a toughee to be sure but it really depends on the size of games and opponents fleets as to which works best. If in doubt, try it out.

Geoff

 

[Myrm]

I have both books here and the manta is 205 in both! The wolverine, fast version of the constitution, is 180.

Yes, looked at the wrong point in the list.......my bad - editted above to correct.....

 

[Trenchbucket]

Yeah but have you looked at the errata for the Klingon fast cruiser, it went from all round killer machine to a Gorn garbage barge for the same points :x time to melt mine and turn them into D7's or D5's


the goal is to change with the times, or conquer all and make the times change to your will

 

[Ben2]

No it didn't, it got the phaser-2s corrected so they matched the D7, you can still hit a target in the forward arc with 5 phaser-1s and 2 phaser-2s, a target anywhere in the aft arc with 6 phaser-2s, and a target in either side arc with 3 phaser-1s and 4 phaser-2s.

If reducing the points is justified though (and it might be in comparison to the Manta Ray for example), post a couple of games where you've used them.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Our local Klingon player has recently doubled his hangar of FD7s - use them in packs, you will find they are quite worth it!

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I've only just noticed myself how poor the NCA>NCF upgrade is compared to the CA>CF upgrade.
Seeing as that Fast can be a powerful trait, I decided to compare the CF vs NCF, and I'm really struggling to see the NCF being worth much more than the CF.

(I just know that this is going to bite me in the ass, and that CFs will be made more expensive >.<)

 

[JohnDW]

Yeah, same shields, , less hull, 1 more drone, same phaser1's but 'better' fire arcs on them, no phaser3's, same photons.

I'd say the CF and NCF are fairly different ships, but similar enough you might consider sticking with the CF to save points. I guess it depends on what you want.

The main point to consider is if the 25 pts difference is worth going from 8AD phaser1 to 10AD phaser1 in a best-case arc, and from 1 ADD to 2 ADD. The "worst case" fire arc also goes from 2AD to 4AD phaser1.

For me I'd say the Manta would be worth taking, two of them in a pair getting 10AD (sometimes even killzone) PH1 shots certainly seems worth the points to me.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

On the flip side, the Manta Ray has been stripped of its anti-seeker defences compared to the Wolverine. It can't fire to maximum effect whilst evading seekers in the same way as the Wolverine can, and it doesn't have the defensive phasers that the Wolverine does. Instead it has an extra point of AAD which can only be used in limited circumstances.

I'll give the Manta Ray one thing though, it's certainly better at running away! Most of its improvements in firepower are in the rear fire arcs, including a spectacular tripling of phaser-1s along the rear boresight

 

[JohnDW]

The CF does only have two PH3 turret, if you dont use the NCF's PH1 turret, you can use it for defense, still have the same 'offense' phasers as the CF, but have better defense which will hit on a 2+ instead of a 3+.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Compared to the CF's turrets as a defence against 2 attacks, you then have the NCF's turret as a defence against a single attack. This leaves the NCF with worse offensive firepower with its remaining phasers, due the to CF's superior arc arrangement.

 

[JohnDW]

If you're firing the 1AD turrets against drones, maybe they are better for defense, against plasma its the same though, since you'll rarely have 1AD of plasma to shoot down, i fail to see how 2 different 1AD systems is better than 1 2AD system.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Even though you just said it yourself? Having your turrets as 2 separate systems gives you the flexibility to cope with 2 separate 1AD attacks, usually in the form of drones (but also smaller plasma weapons at long range).

 

[JohnDW]

ok, but with anti-drone 2, you won't be worried about drones much if its a 1 drone attack wave, if its a 2+ drone attack wave, then you wont be wasting the phasers, and if its a 1ad plasma, you can stop it, or let it go an wait for other plasma to stop.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

That is very dependant on if you can even use the AAD function. Any time you use a power drain special action with a fast cruiser, there's a good chance that you'll choose to switch off your AAD.

 

[Ben2]

If you're firing the 1AD turrets against drones, maybe they are better for defense, against plasma its the same though, since you'll rarely have 1AD of plasma to shoot down, i fail to see how 2 different 1AD systems is better than 1 2AD system.

Because of the utility against drones. G-racks are great but can't be used against plasmas, whereas having a couple of 1AD Ph-3s means you can use them against both and can pick off single drone attacks.

It's more flexible. And having a couple of phaser-3s in addition to G-racks has the benefits of phaser-3s never run out of ammo and you can use them while going all power to engines.

 

[McKinstry]

I see the NCF as overall slightly better than the CF but not 25 points worth.