Major and Minor Actions (house rule concept)

[Mixster]

Interesting house rules.

However, do note that if a monsters Evade and movement speed is high enough, it can decide to only stay in the fight for the important part of it's CAs before it moves away. So combats would go like this:

Round 1:
PC Turn: 3 PCs go into close combat with longer reach monster. It has 3 CA, so it decides to keep it's distance. 1 PC succeed on the opposed evade and gets in close.
Monster Turn: The monster strikes the closer PC, if it gets a CM it changes range, or trips if it's attacks already cause knockback.
PC Turn: The PCs move in close against the monster and the PC who's in close strikes it. The monster allows everything.
Monster Turn: The monster moves away from the PCs. They can either strike against it's evade roll, or they can try to oppose evade.
PCs lose remaining CAs since they are not in close combat with the monster, and have no movement left.
Round 2: Proceeds as round 1.

All in all, this means a monster can often trade blows in no more than a 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 deal in it's disfavor.

---
So while combat actions are important, a lot of other variables step into a combat.

 

[daxos232]

What your doing sounds a lot like what I did when I first started MRQ. My only previous experience was playing a little d&d 3.0, and I didn't understand the CA and CMs of MRQ.

I wasted a lot of time messing with the rules trying to remake stuff from scratch. I can understand your concerns, as I had very similar ones. Its a lot easier to just make some small adjustments.

For example: instead of being completely defenseless when a characters CAs are gone, they can still do parry or evade an attack, but at a cumulative -20% penalty for each reaction. Maybe they cannot use defensive CM either when doing this.

 

[Lemnoc]

I wasted a lot of time messing with the rules trying to remake stuff from scratch.

I'm reminded of a friend of mine, a really insightful engineer who loved sailing. He sat down to imagine a super efficient, lightweight and adaptable apparatus that would create the dynamics of a parafoil wing that might serve as a propulsion device for a boat. After running a bunch of numbers, he discovered that the efficient, lightweight, dependable winglike aerodynamics he was trying to replicate was exactly what the sail already did.</redface>

 

[Lemnoc]

Another thought for giant-sized opponents might be to allow them to, based on whatever they're swinging, to strike at multiple targets in a single CA.

Looks like there's sufficient rationale in the RAW to allow area-based attacks, as per spells, for giant-sized attacks.

I've toyed with the notion that after the initial target is successfully hit, anything reasonably within length of the giant-sized weapon being used and, say, a 90-degree arc may be struck with a -20% cumulative penalty. In practice you'd sweep hex by adjacent hex until the attack failed. Naturally, since the weapon is by definition Enormous (E), the most appropriate defense would likely be Evade rather than Parry.

This seems to pump up the combat efficacy of impressive monsters without necessarily giving them CAs they wouldn't deserve by DEX and INT or monstrous ability alone.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Dan True]

Thoughts on this?

A good idea. I'll try it out next time my party is facing a horribly large something.

- Dan

 

[Mixster]

Thoughts on this?

Would you still let the remaining targets get hit if the first one parried and succeeded?

 

[Simulacrum]

If you have an E for enormous rating for the weapon (like the sweep of a giant's club) then the assumption must be that unless you have an E rated weapon to parry with, it keeps going. Maybe an H weapon can reduce the attack's effectiveness on subsequent targets. As Lemnoc suggested, the obvious response for most people is Evade.

I'm not sure about the cumulative -20% for targets in the arc - if the CS is a 'Sweep Attack' then everyone in the area of effect is probably attacked at the same chance. OTOH, I'd assume that chance would be lower than the giant's skill with 'normal' attacks. Maybe at his club CS 20%, or even half his skill.

 

[Lemnoc]

I'm not sure about the cumulative -20% for targets in the arc - if the CS is a 'Sweep Attack' then everyone in the area of effect is probably attacked at the same chance. OTOH, I'd assume that chance would be lower than the giant's skill with 'normal' attacks. Maybe at his club CS 20%, or even half his skill.

My thought on this was twofold: 1) everything struck in a sweep would blunt some of the force and accuracy of the next blow in series; 2) I didn't want this attack to be too devastating, just help even up the odds for a Very Dangerous Creature against a party of attackers.

OTOH, area-attack spells aren't balanced this way and players survive them. Maybe I'm being too cautious here.

As for the base chance, I assumed the giant whatnot would have its eye on one particular target. Everyone else would be collateral damage in the "target-rich environment." Could be imagined otherwise, and YMMV.

 

[Redcrow]

Maybe its just the evil GM in me, but I would make it an area attack at full Skill against every target in the area of effect because I want my giant-sized creatures to be a giant-sized threat for the characters. :twisted:

 

[Lemnoc]

Maybe its just the evil GM in me, but I would make it an area attack at full Skill against every target in the area of effect because I want my giant-sized creatures to be a giant-sized threat for the characters. :twisted:

This would really make something like a kraken, with its high damage modifiers, something quite fearsomely deadly. OTOH, perhaps creatures like this should be something other than a target a group of players understand they can simply surround and systematically cut to into calamari.

 

[Mixster]

Maybe its just the evil GM in me, but I would make it an area attack at full Skill against every target in the area of effect because I want my giant-sized creatures to be a giant-sized threat for the characters. :twisted:

This would really make something like a kraken, with its high damage modifiers, something quite fearsomely deadly. OTOH, perhaps creatures like this should be something other than a target a group of players understand they can simply surround and systematically cut to into calamari.

Given that a Kraken probably has incredible reach,, and a lot of off-hand CAs, getting close enough to do anything could prove hard on itself.
Having it target all players as well makes it almost meaningless to try and take it in close combat.

 

[Redcrow]

This would really make something like a kraken, with its high damage modifiers, something quite fearsomely deadly. OTOH, perhaps creatures like this should be something other than a target a group of players understand they can simply surround and systematically cut to into calamari.

That was my thought exactly. Some creatures, like a Kraken is an excellent example, should be more like a force of nature than just merely another creature. I can easily envisage multiple PCs/NPCs being swept off the deck of a ship from a single swipe of a Kraken's tentacle.

Now I feel like going back to re-watch Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest for some inspiration.

 

[Mixster]

This would really make something like a kraken, with its high damage modifiers, something quite fearsomely deadly. OTOH, perhaps creatures like this should be something other than a target a group of players understand they can simply surround and systematically cut to into calamari.

That was my thought exactly. Some creatures, like a Kraken is an excellent example, should be more like a force of nature than just merely another creature. I can easily envisage multiple PCs/NPCs being swept off the deck of a ship from a single swipe of a Kraken's tentacle.

I agree, but because it's so big, handling it as a monster might be silly.

What if the kraken doesn't really have skill values and combat actions, because it's so terrifying to seaborne enemies, it could just be, well roll evade or it hits you for X damage, this round, and the next it's gonna do something else like eat the ship.

I mean, when monsters get incredibly powerful, statting them out with the same system might get a bit silly.

 

[Redcrow]

I agree, but because it's so big, handling it as a monster might be silly.

What if the kraken doesn't really have skill values and combat actions, because it's so terrifying to seaborne enemies, it could just be, well roll evade or it hits you for X damage, this round, and the next it's gonna do something else like eat the ship.

I mean, when monsters get incredibly powerful, statting them out with the same system might get a bit silly.

I could probably agree with that. Would you suggest maybe treating it as an environmental hazard... like escaping from a burning building or trying to find shelter during a hurricane?

It does seem a bit silly to treat some really big monsters the same way as other creatures and the rules can begin to break down somewhat at those extremes.

 

[Lemnoc]

It does seem a bit silly to treat some really big monsters the same way as other creatures and the rules can begin to break down somewhat at those extremes.

Funny, the thing that launched this thread-within-a-thread was Dan True's observation that really powerful monsters can be pretty easily punked by a coordinated team overpowering their CAs.

While in NO WAY am I in favor of letting players joust with the gods, I do think they need to have at least some chance to take down a legendary creature with a physical biology like a kraken or cyclops or dragon. Hence, I would not favor treating these creatures like environmental hazards.

 

[Redcrow]

While in NO WAY am I in favor of letting players joust with the gods, I do think they need to have at least some chance to take down a legendary creature with a physical biology like a kraken or cyclops or dragon. Hence, I would not favor treating these creatures like environmental hazards.

I just don't want the PCs in my games to say "oh look, a dragon. Lets go kill it!". Instead I want them to say "Oh frak! A Dragon! RUN!!!". YMMV.

 

[soltakss]

I want my PCs to eventually feel that they can kill a dragon. After all, dragonslaying and ginatslaying are staples of Fairy Tales and Folk Tales. It's what heroes do.

 

[DrBargle]

Perhaps the ideal solution is not to treat the Dragon/Titan/Kraken as an environmental hazard, but as an 'environment' itself. What I'm trying to get at is a Dragon shouldn't be defeated the same way as a bar room bully - so we don't stat it out in [quite] the same way. It still will have HP and combat skills, but a large part of the encounter is dealing with the monster as an environment itself. It is something that can be climbed on, for example, dealing with it exposes the characters to 'environmental hazards' (fiery breath, sweeping tails, earthshaking stomps, etc.) that are not combat skills or styles, but that must be avoided or otherwise negated - in the same way that characters must 'solve' traps, rockfalls, cliffs, etc.

In other words, characters might regularly fight with bandits in their hideout, an encounter that has straight combat problems and environmental complications - the dragon encounter should, perhaps, be built as if the dragon is both bandits AND hideout. You still have the legendary possibility of defeating the creature, but it is never a mundane AD&D style roll-off.

Now I getting all excited at the idea of a Jonah and the Whale crossed with Advanced Space Crusade (where the marines fight their way through the interior of a living spaceship) style scenario.

 

[DrBargle]

Also, by transforming legendary creatures from something statted up like an NPC and into an environment, you make it possible for relatively low skill characters to take down the monster by thinking, running, and problem solving - which is surely a better means of emulating most heroic stories than a toe to toe fight.

Each encouter would be a lot of work for a GM - akin to designing a small dungeon - but then fighting dragons should be a rare event in most campaigns (and where it is everyday, dragons statted up like humanoid NPCs is hardly a problem).

 

[Redcrow]

Also, by transforming legendary creatures from something statted up like an NPC and into an environment, you make it possible for relatively low skill characters to take down the monster by thinking, running, and problem solving - which is surely a better means of emulating most heroic stories than a toe to toe fight.

I would agree with that. I hate the idea of certain creatures like Dragons & Krakens being just like any other creature but with a little bit higher stats. IMO, they should be something more special than just another creature to fight toe-to-toe with because there are plenty of creatures for that.

Its not that I don't want the PCs to be able to defeat these creatures; I just want the encounter to feel more epic and different than a run-of-the-mill battle. In fact I like the idea that characters of any skill level could take them down through thinking and problem solving rather than just straight up combat tactics. YMMV.