Low magic game balance

[Lemnoc]

I’m developing a campaign set in Classical Antiquity where magic is something terribly rare and dreadful.

It strikes me, though, that common magic confers a certain game balance that needs to be offset in its absence. My thoughts are to issue a few house adjustments such as
* glossing limbs as incapacitated or broken rather than ruling them severed or torn off
* boosting the efficacy and availability of first aid (“take unto thyself this healing herb”)
* allowing an additional CA for combat styles over 90% that use that style (mastery)
* generosity with Hero Points
* benevolent cults
and other tweaks to ensure players don’t quickly end up like the black knight in MP’s Holy Grail. Not invincible, mind you, just capable of durable adventuring in a more ordinary world.

Have others had experience running low magic campaigns? Are adjustments advisable/necessary? Are there other tweaks that can help offset the absence of divine intervention?

I want to end up with a game that is essential RQ with comparable chances of survival.

 

[Mixster]

I think the biggest problem is that if nobody has anything to use their Magic Points on, POW is a pretty meaningless stat.

 

[Dan True]

I think the biggest problem is that if nobody has anything to use their Magic Points on, POW is a pretty meaningless stat.

One could make resilience based on pow.
There's always Heroic Abilities - if you make em buyable with improvement rolls instead of hero points, MP has a lot more to be used on.

- Dan

 

[Simulacrum]

Personally I'd look first at how the adventures are written and presented, rather than change the rules. If you stop characters having their limbs lopped off, do you do the same for their enemies? That would be less fun... But I would maybe rule a limb chopping off/maiming wound must be result of a single blow. So double location with cumulative damage incapacitates in the same way (leading to death if untreated) but does not necessarily permanently cripple.

NPC stats and skills - if you want realistic and low magic, use realistic NPC stats (using the full range of 3D6 with a representative distribution of the range - the temptation when statting NPCs in my experience is to treat the range as if it is 9-15). If you go with proper dice distribution then NPCs with damage bonuses will be unusual - that big fellah in the bandit gang is an added threat because he might have one. With few strength bonuses and low magic, most weapons require a very high damage roll to do devastating, character-crippling damage. Even a small amount of armour tips the balance. Incapacitation, surrender etc remain the most likely outcome.

Keep weapons historical for the period. Those that deal higher end damage, like a Thracian Romphaia, will then be unusual and a colourful threat when encountered.

Look at when combat happens. In my own setting I like characters to know they should plan the fight to maximise their chances, and still have a serious sense of relief when they come out on top. Beware dumping loads of random encounters on them that they can't plan for or take precautions against as they don't have magic to get out of it unscathed or make a random fight more interesting and involved.

Think around some variant rules - with shields, combat stances etc that allow a character to choose a strategy that limits damage/improves parry chances (as in real life). Classical warriors used big shields like the Thureos, Scutum and Clipeus for a reason.

Why not, as you say, be generous with Hero Points - I'd refer to them as Tyche or Fortuna points depending whether you lean Greco- or Roman, and hand them out to the pious as a reflection of divine favour - a possible alternative to Divine Magic. Alternatively see the Blessing rules in AoT which i'd elaborate on for a classical setting, which picks up some of the slack from cutting back on Common Magic.

 

[Lemnoc]

These are all excellent suggestions, thanks.

Yes, the idea is to provide a lot of period verisimilitude in terms of technology and tactics, historical settings in a dynamic period of history. A few fearsome beasts of classical mythology may lurk in remote areas, terrible and cunning, known and awed. Magic is not entirely non-existent, but cinematic and soul-wrenching (REH style). The gods are distant and aloof, but not to be mocked (and there are no atheists among hoplites). Palace intrigue, wars aplenty, realms to conquer.

I don't care if NPCs get lopped, I can always roll up more. I just want to be adequately merciful to the occasional missteps of adventurers. They do like to get in over their heads, Homeric.

 

[Mixster]

I think the biggest problem is that if nobody has anything to use their Magic Points on, POW is a pretty meaningless stat.

One could make resilience based on pow.

Nope, wouldn't help, even if resilience were based on POW the difference between the guy with 6 and 16 POW would just be +20 Resilience, which can be accounted for by a maximum of 20 Improvement rolls (which is unlikely), however, increasing your POW stat by that amount would cost ridicolously much more.
You could then add the optional rule that resilience and persistence is capped at 5x your stat. But then having a POW of less than 10 would totally screw over your character.

There's always Heroic Abilities - if you make em buyable with improvement rolls instead of hero points, MP has a lot more to be used on.

That's a decent option, but Heroic Abilities are quite good and game-changing in many ways, sundering strike for example, can completely ruin your opponents weapon. And Mighty Blow with something bigger than your fists is pretty much a damage from this attack isn't reduced by parrying ability. Severing Slash also gets quite ridiculous with a greatsword.

Anything you do to change around with POW will make quite a few problems within the system. If people suddenly get a stat they can very much ignore, those that don't will suffer.

My own suggestion is making something "luck-based" for POW, so that players with a high POW are lucky. However, this messes with the system because then somehow magicians are less lucky, and luck suddenly is something dependant on character concept.
You could also merge POW and INT, so you simply remove POW, this has the problem of making even more skills int dependant, taking the INT stat even further into the realm of the most awesome stat.

All in all, without magic, POW is hard to make into a stat on even footing with the other stats.

 

[Jujitsudave]

Scaling back magic is a must for a lower magic game. Either eliminate Common magic entirely or make Common Magic the only form of magic. The game is designed for high-magic, Glorantha style gaming in mind, despite the totally awesome game mechanics. I myself thought that the magic system needed a complete redo, but I have since read all the magic rules in detail and I think....
1. Divine magic for a low magic setting needs fewer tweaks, but on option is to make the spells larger than life and have resistance against them to emphasize this. On the other hand, Divine spells should require major sacrifice, rituals, or just plain won't benefit "infidels" .
2.Sorcery spells could be limited to one MAYBE 2 per Grimoire. That prevents them from being overpowered, especially if enemies can rarely fight back with magic of their own. Once enemies being overusing magic to counter the PCs, you get a magical arms race and it ceases to be a low magic game.
3.Spirit Magic may or may not be used but if it is, each spirit should be a character itself with an extraordinary power. This power should be in line with the ongoing story, and not simply some kind of "buff"

To all those that thought I was a tad nutty for disregarding the magic system in other posts, Sorry. I have seen the error of my ways. It was a lack of understanding on my part.

 

[Mixster]

I think if you want a low magic system you need to hit Spirit Magic with the hardest nerfbat, divine magic with the next hardest, and sorcery with the least hard. Having one spell per grimoire, is IMO not a good way to do taht.

Sorcery is good, don't get me wrong, but even a single predatory bear spirit, can increase your Damage Modifier by 2 steps, and incorporate and kill one enemy. All by only using one CA at the start of each combat from your part and Mr. Bear just does the rest himself. Intensity 3 spirits, that are quite easy to beat when you have your own stats + captain bear + a number of intensity 1 spirits you have eaten with captain bear, and can give you free CMs.
Divine Magic is also quite ridicolous in a low-magic game, as it can cure just about any wound and all that jazz.

But all in all it falls back on the fact that if you nerf these magic systems too hard. POW becomes rather meaningless. Since it gives no attribute of note. Meaning you'd have the following things that the stats govern:
Strength - Damage modifier, all close-combat skills.
CON - HP, Resilience.
DEX - CA, Strike Rank, Evade, All combat Skills.
SIZ - Damage Modifier, HP, Strike Rank.
INT - CA, Strike Rank, Advancing skills.
CHA - Improvement modifier, All social skills.
POW - Persistence.
All in all, POW is the shortest of those straws, so you would have to introduce something new that POW can be used for. There are a few ideas posted above, but those I prefer is to either just merge it with CHA, or have it substitute INT for calculating Combat Actions.

 

[Richard]

If it's to be Homeric you could go with the concept of arrette or 'excellence' for want of a better translation. This was the ideal of martial brilliance to be strived for and the great heroes accrued lots of amazing moves without the apparent use of magic (Although the Gods had a habit of mucking everyone about). Lobbing a spear through 3 opponents in a single shot, that kind of thing. Just call Hero Points 'Arrete' and you're off. Let them replenish their points at the end of the scenario IF they've accomplished something truly heroic. Remember that heroes had a rather high tragic death rate in Homer too! If you want them to last make sure they pick their fights carefully and don't give in to the temptation to give the enemy big chunky stats.

 

[alex_greene]

In Traveller, a PC's characteristics can modify the outcome of a skill check. Typically, high characteristics (9 - 15) add a +1 to +3 die modifier (DM) to the skill roll.

Psions have at their disposal a Talent called Awareness - one power of which, Enhanced Awareness, allows them to add their Psionic Strength rating (if positive) to affect the skill roll's outcome.

You could have a similar arrangement in Legend, perhaps using 5 x POW instead of any natural skill, if 5 x POW turns out to be higher.

Low magic is no less powerful than high magic. It just uses far less flash, and focuses on making things happen that could be achievable through non-magical means: not so much raising money by turning a pile of lead into gold, more along the lines of accidentally stumbling across a bag of coins someone had dropped in the street.

 

[dbhoward]

Had you thought about using Common "Magic" as a talent, secrets or craft rather than genuine magic? For example, Bandit's Cloak means you are especially stealthy; Beast Call means you are somehow in tune with wild creatures; Befuddle gives you a gift of the gab that confuses your foes; Bladesharp means you know how better to hit and harm; etc. Not every bit of common magic makes sense this way (Chill, Darkwall, Firearrow, Skybolt... okay, maybe not) but most can be reskinned as having a special "knack" of some kind. Using it this way, I reinterpret POW as your mental focus which gets drained when you use these. If using them this way I would let players choose them at character creation and improve them, but not learn them later. So one has a Golden Tongue, one is Lucky, one has Second Sight, and so on.

If you take out some of the more blatant Common spells, what's left would not necessarily be out of place even in a historical-setting game. Then you could save Divine Magic and Sorcery for the earth-shaking stuff. I agree, though, that Spirit Magic probably should be left out entirely if most characters won't have magic.

 

[Titus]

Sorcery magic can be used as low power magic, if the ability to manipulate it is rare or non-existent.
You could tinker with the strength of the spells by adjusting how much benefit you get for a given percentage of grimoire skill. (1 level of effect per 20% instead 10%, or somesuch)
Maybe only allow manipulation via artifacts, such as wands, staves, rings, orbs, symbols, carved runes, etc. Possibly using something like AoT's wand enchantment, or the old AHRQ3's sorcery matrix. Someone with a staff that grants a 1 point range manipulation on their spells could be fearsome when everyone else has to touch the target of their spells.
Maybe make every spell its own grimoire skill. (basically, 1 spell per grimoire.)

But ultimately if you want really low magic, you either have to seriously nerf it, or keep it out of the player character's hands altogether. Make it the province of special NPCs, like the old blind hermit with the healing touch granted by a goddess or the witch of the woods who can make a healing poltice. They have to be sought out and dealt with, probably paid but not necessarily with silver. Or the high priest of Mars who can bless your weapons to strike true against the beast ravaging the countryside.

You might look to AoT for some very good, out-of-the-Gloranthan-box thinking. Besides the blessings mentioned in Simulacrum's post, spirits are made somewhat less dangerous by allowing a character to battle the spirit using their full persistence skill rather than half. And spirit combat usually requires the spirit to manifest in the material world to attack.

OR come up with your own magic system.

And if your characters are supposed to be Heroic, be generous with hero points.

Possibly tinker with what hero points can do.
Maybe a hero point can be spent to bump the level of success up or down one. (critical to success, or failure to success, or success to critical, etc.)
Maybe use a hero point to counter/cancel an opponents use of a hero point.
Maybe a one-time use of a heroic ability.
Other things you think are cool effects for heroes.

 

[Lemnoc]

This is an interesting discussion and it confirms what I feared, and that is that magic does confer some overall survivability/durability that its removal would reduce. You can take the ruleset out of Glorantha, but it’s a challenge to take Glorantha [common magic] out of the ruleset.

If understand the commentary, in a low magic world POW needs to be given something to do.

IIRC, in the old Ringworld game, POW represented luck (which was actually a characteristic explored in Niven’s fiction). Just as easily it might be understood to represent one’s relationship with the cosmos in the instances where divine magic comes into play, blessing of the gods and all. I can imagine in those instances where all other rolls have failed and death is imminent, one might allow a POW roll to serve the same purpose as burning a Hero Point, yes?

I do like the suggestion of substituting POW for INT in determining CAs—the best fighters, like professional boxers, are not always the brightest bulbs in the analytic dept, but have special knack that allows them to perceive advantage and excel.

---

And dbhoward, yes, it does strike me at least several mundane common magic advantages could be offered and explained in material ways.

 

[Mixster]

Various suggestions on nerfing magic.

I really fail to see how nerfing magic makes a low-magic setting. If you want magic to be rare, making it worse only solves the issue to make it rarer by the fact that it is now a suboptimal choice.

IMO, this isn't sound game balance. The player asking, Why is Magic so meaningless, and getting the answer, because it is a low-magic world. Will be confused. Sound game balance isn't IMO arbitrarily nerfing something due to the setting.

A good take on low magic systems, that are circumstantial can be found in Vikings.

I do like the suggestion of substituting POW for INT in determining CAs—the best fighters, like professional boxers, are not always the brightest bulbs in the analytic dept, but have special knack that allows them to perceive advantage and excel.

My thoughts exactly, and since INT seems to be scholarly knowledge, I don't really get why they made CAs dependant on that from the start. Perhaps it was balancing reasons.

IIRC, in the old Ringworld game, POW represented luck (which was actually a characteristic explored in Niven’s fiction). Just as easily it might be understood to represent one’s relationship with the cosmos in the instances where divine magic comes into play, blessing of the gods and all. I can imagine in those instances where all other rolls have failed and death is imminent, one might allow a POW roll to serve the same purpose as burning a Hero Point, yes?

I'm intrigued by the idea, but I'm not sure entirely what you mean, so you burn your POW permanently to get soem effect? Or you roll against your POW (or possibly POWx5) to get a one use Hero Point?

---
There also might arise a problem in this thread were people disagree on the definition of Low Magic, I usually interpret it as magic is rarely used, and when it is, it is a plot device. However, I'm open to other and better interpretations.

 

[Loz]

the best fighters, like professional boxers, are not always the brightest bulbs in the analytic dept, but have special knack that allows them to perceive advantage and excel.

And

My thoughts exactly, and since INT seems to be scholarly knowledge, I don't really get why they made CAs dependant on that from the start. Perhaps it was balancing reasons.

I think there's a flaw in looking at INT's involvement in this way.

INT, first of all, isn't just about scholarly knowledge. Its about intuition, reasoning and applying that reasoning in a practical, as well as, a scholarly context. As Pete will no doubt tell you, he often comes up against some technically very skilled fighters but he has the edge because he uses his intuition and reasoning to anticipate what his opponent will do and then uses that against their technique. INT is therefore applied practically and creatively. In game terms, this translates into CA and Strike Rank. Technique, though, which applies to someone like a professional boxer, is reflected first in the base value of the skill (STR+DEX) and then in training.

Let's say we have two boxers. A's a bit dim, but strong and fast. The other, B, is not quite as strong and not quite as fast, but quite astute in reading his opponent.

A can improve his technique through sparring and pummelling a sandbag. So can B. This means that, through training, B will become a far better boxer - because he'll have a higher Strike Rank and more CA - than A. Boxer A though, if he concentrates on improving his smarts will be able to close on B's advantage. If, though, he just sticks to skipping, jogging and beating the shite out of a sandbag, he'll never improve his ability to out-think B as an opponent.

So the way we worked it wasn't a hugely conscious effort to strike game balance, but it was a conscious attempt to reflect what processes go on in combat. In the end the two do strike a kind of balance but with some interesting nuances.

 

[Dan True]

I think there's a flaw in looking at INT's involvement in this way.

INT, first of all, isn't just about scholarly knowledge. Its about intuition, reasoning and applying that reasoning in a practical, as well as, a scholarly context. As Pete will no doubt tell you, he often comes up against some technically very skilled fighters but he has the edge because he uses his intuition and reasoning to anticipate what his opponent will do and then uses that against their technique. INT is therefore applied practically and creatively. In game terms, this translates into CA and Strike Rank. Technique, though, which applies to someone like a professional boxer, is reflected first in the base value of the skill (STR+DEX) and then in training.

I very much agree. I was very surprised when I first started fighting medieval, how much is reading the opponent. Swords move so incredibly fast when the fighters are trained, especially when unarmoured, so you cannot simply stick to quick reflexes and brute force - you need to be able to analyse what the opponent is about to do, whether it's a feint or not etc.
So, looking at how INT is reflected in the game, INT cannot simply be scholarly knowledge - which often translates to "the ability to organise data and remember it". It is much more the ability to think quickly and analyse a situation in the blink of an eye.

Scholarly knowledge is not so much a stat, as it is simply the collection of advanced skills / lore skill you have. Having a natural ability to think clearly (high INT), simply helps with that... but you in no way need to be especially quick-witted or clever to be a scholar, you just know a lot.

That was a side track, sry. The point is that using POW for calculating CA is not very realistic - However, if you're going for a legendary low-magic homer/roman-style, then it might actually be very appropriate... as your fighting skill is often affected by how the gods view you, who your father was and from what line you descend, etc.

- Dan