Line of sight - damage allocation questions

[seanwalsh]

Help me understand how this works. My British Infantry fire team with a readied Minimi Para are firing on an MEA Infantry Squad w/9 men down the street.
I had 2 guys on the left side of the street and 2 guys on the right. They were shooting down the street between two wrecked vans, so my guys on the left could see half the enemies and my guys on the right could see the other half. Line of Sight to the nearest model within the Fire Zone was blocked from the Minimi, and the Minimi rolled the highest scoring Damage Dice. However, the other 2 guys across the street had a clear Line of Sight to the nearest model.
Do I allocate the Damage Dice from the Minimi to the nearest enemy it can see, or the nearest enemy any of my guys can see?

 

[seanwalsh]

Am i missing something?
Is this question too obvious or does nobody know the answer?

 

[Mr Evil]

roll your dice all together, remove the (1s) and allocate the dice as you see fit.

then allocate the hightest dice score to the nearest guy and so on.

look at the rules sheet the answer is under the heading

SHOOTING

 

[Iorwerth]

Don't you have to roll diferent coloured dice for the mini anyway, as minigun Damage Dice count two for Supression purposes? I presumed you needed to keep track of which dice belonged to the minigun in case one of them was a 1 and, therefore, would not count as a supression dice at all.

If the above is correct then it would be possible to allocate the Damage Dice for the squad and only apply the minigun Dice to models in its LOS. Obviosuly this is not what the rules actually say, but it does seem more intuiative.

 

[Mr Evil]

yeah try nuse different dice for different hit numbers or weapon efects, if that makes sence. makes things faster.

reminds me i need more dice

 

[seanwalsh]

Iowerth,
I was rolling different dice for different weapons, and it mattered in this case because some of the enemies were in cover. Changing the way the dice were allocated and which special rules applied to which dice changed the number of kills.

Mr. Evil,
I looked at the rule you quoted, but it could be contradicted by the following rules under Fire Zones and Line of Sight
"A Fire Zone is simply a 6” radius – when you roll Damage Dice for your unit’s shooting, you can only attack models completely or partially within this Fire Zone that are also within Line of Sight." and "Every model with a weapon can use it to attack any enemy that it can see and is within range"

As in the example above, the highest die came from a specific weapon with specific rules with line of sight to specific enemies (not the nearest). The second highest die came from a different weapon with different rules with line of sight to different enemies (the nearest).

We did not spend any time arguing about it because we were just testing the rules and we are brothers, but I could see this becoming an issue in a less "friendly" game.

 

[Iorwerth]

It seems to me that the ethos of B:Evo is to have a simple, fast and easy to use system. Because of this it groups the whole squad's dice into 1 pool and then assigns them as it says in the shoot rule - it does not matter if a particular weapon has LOS to a particular model, all that matters is that at least 1 firing model has LOS to the target model.

However, for those who don't mind a slightly more complicated way of assigning dice and who are rolling different coloured dice for MGs etc, it seems to me that you could:

Assign the highest Dice to nearest model, unless it is a coloured dice and the weapon for the coloured dice cannot trace LOS. If this is the case then you find the heighest dice that is not coloured and assign it to the nearest target model. The same rule is then applied to the next nearest target model etc until every model has been allocated 1 dice. After this, as normal, the player can assign the Dice as he wishes, but any coloured dice can only be assigned to models in the firing weapons LOS.

While this is not perfect, it would stop the situation where an MG's Dice are assigned to targets that it cannot trace a LOS to. But it would only apply if different weapons within the squad were using different coloured dice.

This system is slightly more intuiative but is more complicated. i suppose it boils down to how quick you want the dice assigning to be.

 

[dsfrankevo]

I use different color dice but roll them all at once - usually use the following;

White for rifles - I have lots of white

Red for SAW/ LMGs - then add a die to the suppression pool for each non-"one" rolled

Blue/Black for RPG / M203 or other grenade launcher

In most cases it makes no difference but the RPG / Grenade die has an impact on which models take additional fragmentation damage

After a few turns of getting used to it - its very quick

I love these rules

 

[Mr Evil]

simple fast

keep it simple.


i think your thinking about it more than playing it, try a few games and it comes together trust me, bar sitting you down infront of me and showing some scenarios with figs and dice its hard to exsplain any better than the rules already do.

 

[Rabidchild]

I think I'd roll the dice separately if it mattered, as in the case that Sean is bringing up. If both players are okay with the fast and loose play then that's great. In a tournament setting I'd roll the dice separately, it's like in 40k when a model is only in rage to one enemy but the rest of his squad has range to multiples. I roll the one guy separately as a matter of courtesy so my opponent doesn't think I'm trying to pull something.

 

[GhostWolf69]

So we have to roll dice separately for separate weapons AND for separate LOS (cover or obstruction) situations within the same shooting action.... ?

Basically making this one model at a time fireing unless you have a clearcut situation (someing we know happens rather seldom).

Pick one model roll his dice;

If it is a one discard, otherwise allocate it to the nearest enemy this model can see AND that doesn't have a die allready, unless it is the only one he can see... But then maybe the other model who allready allocated this die could/should have allocated it to some other target?

Pick the next model. Repeat.

Ugh. This game just got... slow.

I don't like it.

/wolf

 

[cordas]

Basically making this one model at a time fireing unless you have a clearcut situation (someing we know happens rather seldom).

Pick one model roll his dice;

If it is a one discard, otherwise allocate it to the nearest enemy this model can see AND that doesn't have a die allready, unless it is the only one he can see... But then maybe the other model who allready allocated this die could/should have allocated it to some other target?

Pick the next model. Repeat.

Ugh. This game just got... slow.

I don't like it.

/wolf

I agree with what you are saying, but generaly I would say try and simplfy things as much as possible, and use the occasional fudge (all with agreement in your playing group of course).

Just a couple of things that you might help.

When shooting at a unit where some models are in cover and other not - You allocate dice to the closest model and work backwards *, if some of these models are in cover you still allocate the highest dice to it, then decide whether the model is killed / hit / missed by its cover adjusted target and kill scores.
Same applies for obscurement, when you have a question of whether a model is obscured or not (some models can get clear LOS and others are obscured) we tend to play a fast and easy rule, if half or more (rounding in the shooters favour, but if you want to do defenders favour then thats equally well as long as you are consistant) of the shooting squad can get clear LOS then he is in the open, if less than half can get a clear view then he is obscured.

We have found this is quick and easy and have yet to have an arguement over it.

When shooting MGs and the like we just fudge the rules and pretend all dice are the same. Unless there is a clear case this should not apply, if the readied MG can only see one guy, and none of the rest of the squad its usual for the players concerned to do the gentlemanly thing and say the MG is only shooting that guy, but we have found these circumstances tend to be few and far between so making a special allowance for them works fine.

* If you want to have a rule where models out of cover get shot before those in cover then I don't see that being a problem either, as long as it is done with prior agreement. You could say the same for obscured figures but I think that would be maybe a step to far.

 

[GhostWolf69]

When shooting at a unit where some models are in cover and other not - You allocate dice to the closest model and work backwards *, if some of these models are in cover you still allocate the highest dice to it, then decide whether the model is killed / hit / missed by its cover adjusted target and kill scores.

I know. That much is clear from the rules. What I don't like is that if the Target is Obscured from ONE of my shooters but in the Clear from another... I basically need to keep track of what shooter rolled what die, all the time. And that is ... Slow and boring.

/../we tend to play a fast and easy rule, if half or more (rounding in the shooters favour, but if you want to do defenders favour then thats equally well as long as you are consistant) of the shooting squad can get clear LOS then he is in the open, if less than half can get a clear view then he is obscured.

I have been playing around with the same idea. Nice to see someone else doing the same.

When shooting MGs and the like we just fudge the rules and pretend all dice are the same. Unless there is a clear case this should not apply, if the readied MG can only see one guy, and none of the rest of the squad its usual for the players concerned to do the gentlemanly thing and say the MG is only shooting that guy, but we have found these circumstances tend to be few and far between so making a special allowance for them works fine.

* If you want to have a rule where models out of cover get shot before those in cover then I don't see that being a problem either, as long as it is done with prior agreement. You could say the same for obscured figures but I think that would be maybe a step to far.

Yeah... I guess. I just can't shake the feling that two very separate miniature paradigms have collided in these rules.

One being simplyfied group rolls, that doesn't really care for individual minis and their respective relations and that allocates highest die to closest target regardless.

The other being a skirmish one where you have to trace a line from each fierer to it's intended target, being ONE model NOT a group or "fire zone", and modifications are applied accordingly to THAT roll.

These two concepts are not very good at meshing with eachother, and I honestly think the Simplyfied Rules are doing quite a crappy job explaining how, they should mesh.

/wolf

 

[cordas]

These two concepts are not very good at meshing with eachother, and I honestly think the Simplyfied Rules are doing quite a crappy job explaining how, they should mesh.

/wolf

I don't agree with you about that, yes there is a bit of a fudge needed, but its a minor one really. Given the brevity of the rules I am supprised how simple the rules are whilst at the same time allowing a fairly in depth level of play.

Comparing it to 40K (the only other squad based game I have played a lot) its not only a hell of a lot simpler, but its also by a HUGE margin a lot more fun and encourages tactical play. (Even if I think it can encourage some tactical play that fits well into the realms of cheese).

 

[GhostWolf69]

Comparing it to 40K (the only other squad based game I have played a lot) its not only a hell of a lot simpler, but its also by a HUGE margin a lot more fun and encourages tactical play. (Even if I think it can encourage some tactical play that fits well into the realms of cheese).

Anything is better compared to 40k... so that's not saying much in my book.

/wolf

 

[docrailgun]

It does matter if a particular weapon has LOS. THe shooting rules specifically say that they do "...attack any enemy that it candraw a Line of Sight to and is within range (to the center of the FZ)."

It seems to me that the ethos of B:Evo is to have a simple, fast and easy to use system. Because of this it groups the whole squad's dice into 1 pool and then assigns them as it says in the shoot rule - it does not matter if a particular weapon has LOS to a particular model, all that matters is that at least 1 firing model has LOS to the target model.

 

[GhostWolf69]

It does matter if a particular weapon has LOS. THe shooting rules specifically say that they do "...attack any enemy that it candraw a Line of Sight to and is within range (to the center of the FZ)."

It seems to me that the ethos of B:Evo is to have a simple, fast and easy to use system. Because of this it groups the whole squad's dice into 1 pool and then assigns them as it says in the shoot rule - it does not matter if a particular weapon has LOS to a particular model, all that matters is that at least 1 firing model has LOS to the target model.

Exactly... hence my confusion, disapointment with the rules. It seems to me all of us are using fudged house rules here to solve it. That is ok and part of the hobby I guess. But it doens't give a very good impression in how the rules are written as they stand.

/wolf