Limiting size of Jump capable ships

[sideranautae]

As the next part of my rules rewrite is to decide on ship sizes. I think I'll limit Jump capable ships to 10,000 tons. M-drives won't have that limitation.

So, I can easily imagine the consequences of trade. Unit prices going up a bit. More cargo ships, etc. On the Mil side it is a bit more difficult as the size of Monitors isn't affected. So, invading forces and defender reinforcements will be limited to 10k tons.

I never got into Trillion credit battles and the like. Any input (I'm not using 3I) on how this might influence long term empire growth or decay?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

As the next part of my rules rewrite is to decide on ship sizes. I think I'll limit Jump capable ships to 10,000 tons. M-drives won't have that limitation.

So, I can easily imagine the consequences of trade. Unit prices going up a bit. More cargo ships, etc. On the Mil side it is a bit more difficult as the size of Monitors isn't affected. So, invading forces and defender reinforcements will be limited to 10k tons.

I never got into Trillion credit battles and the like. Any input (I'm not using 3I) on how this might influence long term empire growth or decay?

One thing limiting the size is the fact that ordinary starships 100-800 tons cost millions of credits. the economy of the United States is $16 trillion per year. Now imagine of the United States was a world in a Traveller setting with a Defense budget of 1 trillion credits, how many starships is it going to buy with that budget and how much will they cost?

 

[sideranautae]

One thing limiting the size is the fact that ordinary starships 100-800 tons cost millions of credits. the economy of the United States is $16 trillion per year. Now imagine of the United States was a world in a Traveller setting with a Defense budget of 1 trillion credits, how many starships is it going to buy with that budget and how much will they cost?

How does that change the paradigm of system vs. system (ultimate outcomes) if the ships could be bigger? Instead of 10 huge ships they are making 100 smaller ones. So?

You are missing part of your post I think?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Smaller ships can be in many more places at once.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Smaller ships can be in many more places at once.

 

[sideranautae]

Smaller ships can be in many more places at once.

Right. So, how does that change the outcomes given that all other systems Navy's are the same? Seems like that would be zero change as it equals out.

 

[dragoner]

I'm a no limits person myself, any reason behind the limitation to 10k tons?

 

[sideranautae]

I'm a no limits person myself, any reason behind the limitation to 10k tons?

To make it different than the universe I've been gaming in for decades. Think it'll make it a bit more frontier like as no place will have huge interstellar freight or military ships jumping between star systems. More starship traffic at any given Port too.

 

[dragoner]

Just wondering.

Mine is a frontier as well: link is in my sig; I don't really have any large polities, the Imperium (4th) does some power projection, but the dreadnaught age is over, mostly it is crudiv's for military ships. I'm lazy though, not trying to reinvent the wheel, mostly working on adventures for player's (can't say what - they will read it).

 

[Infojunky]

I understand, you are looking for a small ship universe, can dig that.

I went kinda in that direction, but more in line with the 3 LLBs, and drives become available by tech level.

 

[sideranautae]

I understand, you are looking for a small ship universe, can dig that.

I went kinda in that direction, but more in line with the 3 LLBs, and drives become available by tech level.

Yes, I'm using a scale of J-1 = TL 10 ... J-6 = TL 15. Lots of isolated humans sytems make it to TL 9 (Grav M-Drives and intra-system space travel). Most never independently reach TL 10. Huge non-jump ships can be built though.

 

[Infojunky]

I understand, you are looking for a small ship universe, can dig that.

I went kinda in that direction, but more in line with the 3 LLBs, and drives become available by tech level.

Yes, I'm using a scale of J-1 = TL 10 ... J-6 = TL 15. Lots of isolated humans systems make it to TL 9 (Grav M-Drives and intra-system space travel). Most never independently reach TL 10. Huge non-jump ships can be built though.

As I said I am totally old school on this, where the only limit on performance is TL to produce the necessary rated computer. .... And well that is J6 allowable at TLC. But try getting any significant tonnage to J6 is a royal pain....

 

[sideranautae]

As I said I am totally old school on this, where the only limit on performance is TL to produce the necessary rated computer. .... And well that is J6 allowable at TLC. But try getting any significant tonnage to J6 is a royal pain....

IMTU (much like earlier Trav versions) the computer isn't the only limit on Jump. The drive itself can only be built at those TL's or above. And with what we've seen even on a planetary level, increasing TL by importing can take a LONG time.

 

[Infojunky]

As I said I am totally old school on this, where the only limit on performance is TL to produce the necessary rated computer. .... And well that is J6 allowable at TLC. But try getting any significant tonnage to J6 is a royal pain....

IMTU (much like earlier Trav versions) the computer isn't the only limit on Jump. The drive itself can only be built at those TL's or above. And with what we've seen even on a planetary level, increasing TL by importing can take a LONG time.

I am using the Book 2 of '81 edition as my guide, remember Jump number limits by TL are introduced in Book 5. As I said I am truly going Old School.... I have pondered introducing the Inertial Compensation limits introduced in TNE for amusement, but then a gimmick Smallcraft..

 

[sideranautae]

I am using the Book 2 of '81 edition as my guide, remember Jump number limits by TL are introduced in Book 5.

I'm using my '79 edition... TNE was where they lost me and my group. The next one we played was GURPS Trav.

 

[phavoc]

It actually makes more sense to use jump tech as your limiter rather than computers. The world of computing has changed so much, and the paradigms are completely different. Concepts such as parallel computing, quantum computing, etc have increased the power of silicon by so much it doesn't make sense to use the computer as the limiter. Besides, if you were having problems computing a J-6 jump you could simply jump further out and take more time coming in on m-drive. Or you'd have your course pre-plotted by a jump computer on a planet that would be vastly more powerful than a shipboard one, and it could constantly be running updated jump computations and all you would need is to input your ships tonnage and it could calculate out the rest in almost no time.

But the desire to limit ship size is understandable. If you have the extra $$ I would suggest picking up a copy of GURPS Interstellar wars. A lot of useful information in there you can adapt to your setting. The early Terran ships were limited in size and jump range and may help flesh out the background you are looking for. If nothing else it's a high-quality reference.

 

[sideranautae]

But the desire to limit ship size is understandable. If you have the extra $$ I would suggest picking up a copy of GURPS Interstellar wars. A lot of useful information in there you can adapt to your setting. The early Terran ships were limited in size and jump range and may help flesh out the background you are looking for. If nothing else it's a high-quality reference.

Thanks. I have the basic GURPS Trav book but not the one you mention. Maybe it is in pdf format on Steve's site. IMHO GURPS Trav material is some of the best produced anywhere.

 

[Alex]

In Trillion Crdit Squadron, the optimal size for fighting ships is 1000t (a size that we call "frigates"). The only role for larger ships with spinal mounts is to mop up after a battle - if frigates are well armoured, there are often lots of them left flying around with functioning M-drives but no weapons. At that stage a few larger ships can move into the front line and finish them off at leisure.

Players who opt for lots of capital ships tend to get knocked out embarassingly quickly.

In many ways, this mirrors contemporary naval warfare. Anti-ship missiles are highly effective, and relatively cheap. Large vessels are extremely vulnerable. Expensive defensive systems are rendered ineffective by the simple expedient of firing more cheap missiles. If you had a fixed budget, and just wanted to win a straightforward naval battle, you would buy lots of small patrol boats. Large units such a carriers are completely useless.

Why build carriers then? Well, navies aren't built to fight straighforward naval battles against opponents with comparable budgets & technology. Carriers are great at projecting force against much weaker opponents.

I think you might extend the same reasoning to a Traveller navy design.

 

[sideranautae]

Players who opt for lots of capital ships tend to get knocked out embarassingly quickly.

In many ways, this mirrors contemporary naval warfare. Anti-ship missiles are highly effective, and relatively cheap. Large vessels are extremely vulnerable. Expensive defensive systems are rendered ineffective by the simple expedient of firing more cheap missiles.

Yes, I now remember that situation for most of the TL range. Thanks for pointing it out. I have eliminated the weird missiles that have been around since CT as they cannot be built using any of the rules sets. Armor >12 tends to make even nuc missiles useless though. So works in a low-middle interstellar TL ranges of a Trillion Credit scenario. I remember the change as you went to the high end TL wise.

If you had a fixed budget, and just wanted to win a straightforward naval battle, you would buy lots of small patrol boats. Large units such a carriers are completely useless.

I can see that being the case. Now that I have changed the weapon range rules that too would change. Turret weapons are now the 3" & 5" weapons. Bays the 12" & 16" guns that are very accurate. The small patrol boats would get plastered before coming into range. Of course if many, some WILL get through.

 

[phavoc]

Missiles are actually kind of under-whelming against true naval combatants. Combine your nuclear damper with decent armor and you can shrug off missile attacks. Without an ablative affect you can wander into a firefight and just thumb your meson cannons against a missile-armed attacker.

Though a LOT of Traveller ships (combat and civilian) have low armor ratings, thus making it possible for missiles to be effective.