Lifesupport Costs for Interplanetary accommodations

[mavikfelna]

Ok, I've just run into something and figured I'd ask. The cost for life support all seem to be geared towards Interstellar travel and staterooms. So what about acceleration benches, seats, and cabin space? I can see cabin space being charged the full 1000 credits/mo because it's designed to be fully occupied like any stateroom, and is even used as interstellar accommodations in the Reftbreaker in Great Rift Book 1, p92. But acceleration benches and seats are really only meant for 24 hour or less travel, like cockpits. Do in system travel prices reflect the life support costs for them?

And on a related note, would Cabin Space be a better place for enlisted crew rather than double occupancy staterooms? Are there any negatives for doing so? Does putting crew in barracks instead have any negative effect? For trade vessels especially, using Cabin Space or Barracks for crew would be better from a cost perspective, but if it imposes big negatives that would explain it's lack of use.

 

[Arkathan]

For seats only, I fold it into maintenance. You are replacing filters or chem packs in the air recyclers, and dumping bad air into the station/port for good air.
Cabins pay full life support.
There is no morale function defined for space per person, so cramped quarters is a cultural thing. Except for paying passengers. Solomani love to use cramped quarters. So do Aslan for slave labor. In Mongoose 1st edition, Sword Worlders expected barracks style housing.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's not mentioned, you have to provide for it separately.

Usually, not calculated for short hops.

 

[phavoc]

Ok, I've just run into something and figured I'd ask. The cost for life support all seem to be geared towards Interstellar travel and staterooms. So what about acceleration benches, seats, and cabin space? I can see cabin space being charged the full 1000 credits/mo because it's designed to be fully occupied like any stateroom, and is even used as interstellar accommodations in the Reftbreaker in Great Rift Book 1, p92. But acceleration benches and seats are really only meant for 24 hour or less travel, like cockpits. Do in system travel prices reflect the life support costs for them?

And on a related note, would Cabin Space be a better place for enlisted crew rather than double occupancy staterooms? Are there any negatives for doing so? Does putting crew in barracks instead have any negative effect? For trade vessels especially, using Cabin Space or Barracks for crew would be better from a cost perspective, but if it imposes big negatives that would explain it's lack of use.

It would be best to have a universal cost associated with life support on a per-person basis. Really doesn't matter if it's a cabin or a seat - the life support requirements are the same per sophont. There is a slight difference in that life support for cabins presupposes that food is included, and for a short orbital hop the person in the seat won't need any food. Still, the overall costs remain the same, and would fluctuate with the period.

I'd prefer to have the life support cost process fixed once and for all - its based on the life support system and what its capable of. So a 100 person shuttle would have costs based upon maintenance of the machinery on a weekly basis. Same goes for a ship - and you could break out food costs separately just like they have done for the average costs of a person based on their SOC level chart - food, clothes, housing, etc. Stress the system too much and you pay extra for the stress. Have 1 person onboard a 100 person ship? Well, it lasts longer. The ups/downs can be difficult to track, but we have percentages for everything else, not as if this can't be easily codified and a chart/formula created - assuming you WANT that level of detail. Otherwise it's auto-included in your annual maintenance and yer done.

Like most everything else there have been too many cut-outs and things tossed into the rules that have broken the system because nobody is paying attention to "ooh, cool! let's add this!" - oh, that breaks with what we've already established...squirrel!

 

[Arkathan]

It would be best to have a universal cost associated with life support on a per-person basis. Really doesn't matter if it's a cabin or a seat - the life support requirements are the same per sophont. There is a slight difference in that life support for cabins presupposes that food is included, and for a short orbital hop the person in the seat won't need any food. Still, the overall costs remain the same, and would fluctuate with the period.

I'd prefer to have the life support cost process fixed once and for all - its based on the life support system and what its capable of. So a 100 person shuttle would have costs based upon maintenance of the machinery on a weekly basis. Same goes for a ship - and you could break out food costs separately just like they have done for the average costs of a person based on their SOC level chart - food, clothes, housing, etc. Stress the system too much and you pay extra for the stress. Have 1 person onboard a 100 person ship? Well, it lasts longer. The ups/downs can be difficult to track, but we have percentages for everything else, not as if this can't be easily codified and a chart/formula created - assuming you WANT that level of detail. Otherwise it's auto-included in your annual maintenance and yer done.

Like most everything else there have been too many cut-outs and things tossed into the rules that have broken the system because nobody is paying attention to "ooh, cool! let's add this!" - oh, that breaks with what we've already established...squirrel!

In principle, I agree, but remember that a ship whose life support is based on a 24 hour cycle, as opposed to continuous operation is going to be cheaper. Less food production, less waste recycling. On a six hour flight, you don't expect to have to handle the solid byproducts of each passenger, for example. Simpler systems are cheaper. So we'd still need a two tiered system. Or a base level with add-ons for increased occupancy/times.

 

[Condottiere]

All we need to know the various methods to (re)generate oxygen, and their respective costs.

And water reclamation.

 

[MarcusIII]

All we need to know the various methods to (re)generate oxygen, and their respective costs.

And water reclamation.

Scrub CO2 and crack the O2 out using heat from fusion PP. Filter other air components and put back into circulation. A small supply of LOx. A couple Cr per person per trip. Water recycle is, dehumidifiers and distillation and reverse osmosis with disinfection. A couple Cr per person per trip.

 

[rinku]

Keep in mind there's two costs. Per accomodation type and per person.

Benches and seats have no life support cost, but the flat Cr1000 per person per 4 weeks should still apply. That applies to Basic passage, that applies to Barracks.

That works out to Cr35 per person day. Seems fair enough. Maybe reduce it if they don't get a meal.

Also... 24 whole hours is a bit long for an orbital or lunar trip. Mostly it will be a few hours (a two hour cruise would be Cr3. Hey, that's enough for a complimentary cup of synth-caf!), with the interplanetary jaunts the ones that take a number of days (at which point definitely use standard life support calculations).

TLDR: You really DON'T need to work out the detailed costs of short term life support, regular life support costs scale reasonably. But if that's pushing your buttons, I'm certainly not going to stop you working it all out.

 

[phavoc]

In principle, I agree, but remember that a ship whose life support is based on a 24 hour cycle, as opposed to continuous operation is going to be cheaper. Less food production, less waste recycling. On a six hour flight, you don't expect to have to handle the solid byproducts of each passenger, for example. Simpler systems are cheaper. So we'd still need a two tiered system. Or a base level with add-ons for increased occupancy/times.

Agreed. For short flights I'd expect zero recycling except maybe for air. Obviously it's capable of doing more, so it's possible. With the ability to dock to a station or land the need for recycling is ultra-low.

As far as food production on a ship... it's always seemed to me that except for some things like spices or whatever, there'd be no need or reason to have any hydroponics or airponics on a ship. Stored goods should be more than sufficient for nearly all ships - the exceptions would be ships on very long duration voyages. Those being the exceptions.

With fusion power and advanced materials, recycling fluids should be pretty easy. Remaking waste into edible food... meh... not sure I'd want that when fresh or even canned food would be available from a port. Food is one of those things you really don't want to mess with if you can avoid it. At least that was my experience as a soldier - living on MRE's is entirely possible, but we generally had a rule of at least one hot per day. Active war time is entirely different tho - even then they would try if it was possible.

 

[Condottiere]

You could flood the open spaces with oxygen rich atmosphere.

And have the passengers practice yoga meditation.

 

[MarcusIII]

Keep in mind there's two costs. Per accomodation type and per person.

I eliminated the cost per accomodation per month whether occupied or not. Per person is how I charge

 

[Arkathan]

With fusion power and advanced materials, recycling fluids should be pretty easy. Remaking waste into edible food... meh... not sure I'd want that when fresh or even canned food would be available from a port. Food is one of those things you really don't want to mess with if you can avoid it. At least that was my experience as a soldier - living on MRE's is entirely possible, but we generally had a rule of at least one hot per day. Active war time is entirely different tho - even then they would try if it was possible.

The difference I was going for was that the short flight, if it offered food, would be premade trays, possibly self heating/cooling, brought on and stored, whereas on a multi-day cruise, there will be cooking going on. Whether that resembles chopping vegetables or shaping grey goo is up to your imagination... or desire to torture your players.

 

[mavikfelna]

The only source of interplanetary cost that comes immediately to mind is the shuttle to Marduk for 50 Cr. That's a 2-3 hour flight and a paid off Passenger Shuttle cost 1,073 Cr/mo, payroll of 6,000+ Cr/mo. (there are a pilot and co-pilot in the adventure, but they are local pilots only so they probably don't make 6 KCr/mo. each. Unrefined fuel is 30 Cr. The passenger shuttle can carry 240 people but often runs nearly empty, at least if the adventure is typical. So if we take all that into account, they can't be paying all that much for life support and still be making money because 240 KCr/ 50 Cr means they need to move 4800 passengers a month just to make the life support cost.

 

[rinku]

Well, in theory they shouldn't have much trouble running 4800 passengers a month. That's only 171 per day and they could carry those on one trip.

If you assume four flights a day, they could have an average of a mere 42 passengers per trip and still break even.

Of course, the life support costs aren't a fixed cost but one that is per passenger anyway - so it won't really matter how full the shuttle is in relation to that particular expense. I already scaled CR1000 per person per month and it worked out to be Cr3 per 2 person hours, which scans with a Cr50 ticket.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Cluster Truck has the answers you've been looking for.

Life Support and Fuel
Life support and fuel are the main overheads for a junkboat crew. Each person living aboard a vessel incurs costs and requires a certain amount of supplies every day, including water, filters, air scrubbers and of course food. The basic requirement is one unit of Life Support Supplies (LSS) per person per day, or 1/10 of one unit for someone travelling in a low berth.

One unit of LSS costs Cr150 if bought singly and takes up 0.01 ton of space if carried as cargo. Vessels have an internal capacity for LSS equal to four times their displacement in tons. So, a 25-ton small craft can carry 100 units of LSS without using any cargo space, giving a duration of 50 days for a crew of two before replenishment is required. This will normally be at a port but underway replenishment is possible or further supplies carried in the cargo hold can be used.

It has rules for passengers as well.

In-system passenger transportation depends very much on distance. Local hops such as from an orbital port to the surface of a world, taking two to three hours each way, are typically charged at Cr50 multiplied by the vessel’s quality percentage. Often these transfers are handled by contracted vessels, in which case trying to compete will result in resentment even if passengers can be found.

 

[MarcusIII]

Cluster Truck has the answers you've been looking for.

Wrong answers. The cost of Cr150/day is ridiculously high. Cr500/month is closer to what is real

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sigh, so more core rules hidden in an adventure...

wonder if this stuff will be in the rules compendium or the High Guard revision updated revision?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Sigh, so more core rules hidden in an adventure...

wonder if this stuff will be in the rules compendium or the High Guard revision updated revision?

I hope so. The rules are... extensive.

 

[MarcusIII]

Sigh, so more core rules hidden in an adventure...

wonder if this stuff will be in the rules compendium or the High Guard revision updated revision?

Hopefully neither as some look not well thought out

 

[mavikfelna]

Wrong answers. The cost of Cr150/day is ridiculously high. Cr500/month is closer to what is real

My reading is that this rule replaces both the normal life support costs, but also the standard ship maintenance cost. So it's high, but not out of line. It also makes clear elsewhere that this is the retail price, and clever truckers never pay retail.