LICENSING RESTRICTIONS (Formerly 'The Thing' discussion)
- Thread starter Ben2
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Iapologisedon4chan
Mongoose
scoutdad said:
Plus back in the 70's people didn't really look at wargaming and go "now there's a real money spinner!"
Over on the ADB BBS, the SFB proposals board has literally hundreds of different proposal threads for new ships, weapons, empires, even entirely new settings; not all of which make the cut (for various reasons), but which at least have a chance to be aired for consideration.
And that's not counting the countless ships/weapons/empires/settings which have already been published due to fan input already.
The vetting process can be quite rigorous, not least when you consider the various levels of games in which the proposal in question might have an effect (such as in the strategic game Federation and Empire); but those which make it through the screening process can have an impact on the ongoing development of the SFU.
And that's not counting the countless ships/weapons/empires/settings which have already been published due to fan input already.
The vetting process can be quite rigorous, not least when you consider the various levels of games in which the proposal in question might have an effect (such as in the strategic game Federation and Empire); but those which make it through the screening process can have an impact on the ongoing development of the SFU.
I don't work for ADB or Mongoose, just my observations as a long-time player:
Regearding porting items from SFB / FedCmdr to ACTA:SF ... not sure of Mongoose's policy, but over on ADB's boards, Steve welcomes people to post things like "I've been thinking about PPDs, and here's a few ideas of how they could work in this game" to open discussion. At some point, he may gather up the notes and close down the thread, and then go write the formal rules. Depending on the level of input, the player-author may get name-credit when it's all published.
As to posting stats for ship to be imported, in my opinion, this is shades of grey. If one were to say, "to go along with my PPD rules ideas, here's what I think an ICS ship should look like" and then post the stats for ONE ship as an example, it could be allowed to stay posted. In fact, the designers could even tell you that they like the direction you've gone and ask you to write up the entire fleet to be SENT VIA PRIVATE E-MAIL for them to publish in the next book.
On the other hand, if I were to say "my favorate empire hasn't been imported yet, so I converted stats for every (Lyran/Hydran/ISC/etc) ship in SFB over to ACTA" and post them all on-line ... well, that would potentionally cut into future sales when those empires are published. Also, being as they're my favorate empire of all time, I might be tempted to bump up the stats. When the official-offical versions are published, other players would be "what the flip, why were they neutered?" That causes no end of confusion.
As to why you have to submit ideas for ADB / Mongoose to publish --- back in the dark ages (before World Wide Web), a player submitted some stuff (new empires) to ADB, but it was horribly unbalanced. One of his Frigates could beat any Heavy Cruiser in SFB in an open-space duel. With the right tactics, his ships could NEVER lose a battle. Ergo, it was all rejected. A few months later, he started publishing his own "made for SFB" modules. Many problems. As a player, I go into the store and see an ADB module for $14.95 and this made-for module for $9.95, which one do I want to buy with my limited funds? And how does ADB handle player complaints when not allowed to fly their new favorate ships in offical tournaments? It got ugly all around.
As Jean said several times, ADB & Mongoose have rules they must live by, and they have rules they must tell us to live by. If you go close to a limit, they'll nudge you back into safe ground. But they DO want player inputs. If not, why else would they have put these message boards up?
Regearding porting items from SFB / FedCmdr to ACTA:SF ... not sure of Mongoose's policy, but over on ADB's boards, Steve welcomes people to post things like "I've been thinking about PPDs, and here's a few ideas of how they could work in this game" to open discussion. At some point, he may gather up the notes and close down the thread, and then go write the formal rules. Depending on the level of input, the player-author may get name-credit when it's all published.
As to posting stats for ship to be imported, in my opinion, this is shades of grey. If one were to say, "to go along with my PPD rules ideas, here's what I think an ICS ship should look like" and then post the stats for ONE ship as an example, it could be allowed to stay posted. In fact, the designers could even tell you that they like the direction you've gone and ask you to write up the entire fleet to be SENT VIA PRIVATE E-MAIL for them to publish in the next book.
On the other hand, if I were to say "my favorate empire hasn't been imported yet, so I converted stats for every (Lyran/Hydran/ISC/etc) ship in SFB over to ACTA" and post them all on-line ... well, that would potentionally cut into future sales when those empires are published. Also, being as they're my favorate empire of all time, I might be tempted to bump up the stats. When the official-offical versions are published, other players would be "what the flip, why were they neutered?" That causes no end of confusion.
As to why you have to submit ideas for ADB / Mongoose to publish --- back in the dark ages (before World Wide Web), a player submitted some stuff (new empires) to ADB, but it was horribly unbalanced. One of his Frigates could beat any Heavy Cruiser in SFB in an open-space duel. With the right tactics, his ships could NEVER lose a battle. Ergo, it was all rejected. A few months later, he started publishing his own "made for SFB" modules. Many problems. As a player, I go into the store and see an ADB module for $14.95 and this made-for module for $9.95, which one do I want to buy with my limited funds? And how does ADB handle player complaints when not allowed to fly their new favorate ships in offical tournaments? It got ugly all around.
As Jean said several times, ADB & Mongoose have rules they must live by, and they have rules they must tell us to live by. If you go close to a limit, they'll nudge you back into safe ground. But they DO want player inputs. If not, why else would they have put these message boards up?
Sgt_G said:
How very bizare that he was allowed to do this considering all the licensing issues ............we have never had that problem here with any of the free source packs available here on the site..... If he had published them for free I could understand it but selling the packs - that seems very dodgy but I am no lawyer?
I honestly can't understand the issue when there are "official products" and "unofficial" ones. Thats is the the line - does the parent company publish (or licence out the product) - yes or no - if no then no you can't use it at a official event / tournament etc. It is just a rule like the other rules published at the start of the thread about what you can talk about. not difficult to write or publish and pretty much the same as any other company - I can't walk into a GW tournament with a home made Codex - when they had finished laughing about the idea I imagine I would be told very clearly that I could not use it.
Now I agree that if you want to later sell the product then perhaps yes it will impact on the sales if before it was available for free - although for instance MGP already sell a Traveller adventure that you could get for free previously...........but thats an entirely different matter.
The situation that Sgt_G described happened long ago, the company dealt with the situation, and it still brings back very unpleasant memories for those involved. I believe that what Sgt_G is trying to get at is that part of the reason that we explain things now in advance is because we know this sort of thing can happen without people understanding the ramifications unless we do explain the limitations. With any luck people understand that we cannot allow this to happen and we don't have to pay lawyers to deal with unfortunate choices.
Jean -- Exactly what I was getting at.
Da Boss -- "How very bizare that he was allowed to do this...." That's the point: he was NOT allowed to to that. I suspect it may have cost Task Force Games and ADB a bunch of money to shut him down. I really don't know how it all got resolved in the end. I do however remember the start of it all, and even early on there were many hurt feelings over the whole mess.
Da Boss -- "How very bizare that he was allowed to do this...." That's the point: he was NOT allowed to to that. I suspect it may have cost Task Force Games and ADB a bunch of money to shut him down. I really don't know how it all got resolved in the end. I do however remember the start of it all, and even early on there were many hurt feelings over the whole mess.
Ok - slightly confused about the hurt feelings element :? whose - his? Isn't it just a case of someone trying to cash in on a licensed product, which is very different to producing things for free distribution - especially if the license holder does not want to do them?
MGP have histropically been very light touch in these areas- I guess comprimises will continue to happen on both sides?
I still don't see the possible confusion between official and unofficial - its very clear cut. All the fan made pack and sourcebooks on this forum are exactly that - unofficial, no expects to use them at official events..................or none that I have attended - for any other game system.
Now it might be that people like elements here and there - on occasion more than official versions - but the very most they can do is point to these and say "I wish it was like X or y" and argue their point.
ah well will see what happens when people stick things up like kitbashes with rules and backgrounds.....
MGP have histropically been very light touch in these areas- I guess comprimises will continue to happen on both sides?
I still don't see the possible confusion between official and unofficial - its very clear cut. All the fan made pack and sourcebooks on this forum are exactly that - unofficial, no expects to use them at official events..................or none that I have attended - for any other game system.
Now it might be that people like elements here and there - on occasion more than official versions - but the very most they can do is point to these and say "I wish it was like X or y" and argue their point.
ah well will see what happens when people stick things up like kitbashes with rules and backgrounds.....
GalagaGalaxian
Mongoose
It probably wasn't so "clear cut" in the 80s, before the internet. I also doubt these were labeled as "UNOFFICIAL FAN CONTENT", especially since the person was actually charging for it.
People probably bought the stuff without looking too closely thinking it was official material and got upset when they couldn't use said content at official events or whatever.
People probably bought the stuff without looking too closely thinking it was official material and got upset when they couldn't use said content at official events or whatever.
I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand copyright law, it does not make a distinction between for-free and for-sale; if the copyright holder asks someone to stop, the law is on their side.
For example, on-line fan-fic stories are, technically, illegal (unless one obtains written permission from the copyright holder). I have heard one particular author will go after every story that uses any of his characters; whereas another will pick & choose to target only those that have her under-aged characters doing very adult things. And many other (probably most) authors feel it's not worth time and effort to fight. Some feel that it keeps their characters "alive" and can boost sales of thier book, as do some game designers. Because of the license agreements ADB has to work under, they don't have the option to look the other way, even if they wanted to.
As to hurt feelings issue -- it wasn't just some nameless / faceless player that got hurt; let's just say that people who were friends for years are no longer on speaking terms, and we can leave it at that. But, HEY!, we're all friends here, right? Let's try to keep it that way. ;-)
For example, on-line fan-fic stories are, technically, illegal (unless one obtains written permission from the copyright holder). I have heard one particular author will go after every story that uses any of his characters; whereas another will pick & choose to target only those that have her under-aged characters doing very adult things. And many other (probably most) authors feel it's not worth time and effort to fight. Some feel that it keeps their characters "alive" and can boost sales of thier book, as do some game designers. Because of the license agreements ADB has to work under, they don't have the option to look the other way, even if they wanted to.
As to hurt feelings issue -- it wasn't just some nameless / faceless player that got hurt; let's just say that people who were friends for years are no longer on speaking terms, and we can leave it at that. But, HEY!, we're all friends here, right? Let's try to keep it that way. ;-)
(Haven't seen anything that's a clear yes/no on this, so..)
What's the policy on art? Say I do a sketch of how I picture my tholian admiral, and then decide i'll share it with the forum, is that fine? I think it would be, but i'd like to know where the line is drawn.
Obviously drawing a Fed-BB being kicked in the teeth by a platonic solid is right out :mrgreen:
What's the policy on art? Say I do a sketch of how I picture my tholian admiral, and then decide i'll share it with the forum, is that fine? I think it would be, but i'd like to know where the line is drawn.
Obviously drawing a Fed-BB being kicked in the teeth by a platonic solid is right out :mrgreen:
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
Doesn't have to be platonic, romance is OK as long as it's in good taste. :mrgreen:
I don't know the official answer. Jean Sexton's travelling at this moment and will not be able to check the boards and give one for a couple of days at least. I know that it's OK to post art which does not otherwise violate the license on the Federation Commander boards, but one of the conditions of posting on those boards is (I believe) that the copyright for the post is assigned to ADB, Inc. What the situation is on posting SFU art to THIS board is, I don't know.
I think Jean will be back on-line today or tomorrow, so stand by for official answers. But have you considered the fact that ADB is always looking for good artwork they can publish? You might want to send a couple examples of your work to Steve Cole and see if he likes it. Same with good fiction stories. If you can write well, he's always looking for stories that have a "hook" into a scenario.
I am indeed on the road to Amarillo and should be there shortly to verify things. Here is what I think is true.
We've been reluctant to have fan art because it is so very easy for a fan to think we have the rights to something when we don't. For example, an artist sent us works with a bat-leth in the background. We don't have rights to that, so we suggested one of the Klingon swords from Prime Directive. That art would have needed to be taken down if a fan had posted it.
We do welcome submissions of art and if these meet our needs, the artist may be used again.
Does that help?
Jean
We've been reluctant to have fan art because it is so very easy for a fan to think we have the rights to something when we don't. For example, an artist sent us works with a bat-leth in the background. We don't have rights to that, so we suggested one of the Klingon swords from Prime Directive. That art would have needed to be taken down if a fan had posted it.
We do welcome submissions of art and if these meet our needs, the artist may be used again.
Does that help?
Jean
starbreaker
Mongoose
Jean said:
I bet. The guys from Companion Games didn't like Steve very much either back when I used to play cards with them, but IP pirates never like it when they're taken to task. Lived through it, though - after your lot quashed them they went on to make the Galactic Empires CCG using the ships from their not-SFB stuff, then they morphed into Component Game Systems and put out that awful Babylon 5 boardgame. Ironically, their SFB ripoff products sell for a mint on the secondary market last I looked - which is nigh-inexplicable, because they were arguably worse than you've described them. The Indirigan neutronium boomerang rules were the epitome of overcomplex - a seeking weapon that couldn't be shot down and changed speed and turn mode every few impulses during their flight time. Whee, what fun for the impulse chart controller.
Good thing you put a stop to them. Judging by the number of races they put out for the CCG, if they'd kept doing unlicensed SFB stuff their product range would have been three times the size of ADB's by now, all spottily playtested and prone to power creep. Of course, they were pulling in a lot more once they switched over to the card game, so maybe they'd have stopped on their own when they realized where the real money was back in the 90's. Long gone now, of course - the CCG died the death during the general card game implosion, which they accelerated when they started letting people pay for custom cards useable in game play. I remember my boss debating over getting a few thousand printed himself. You could pay a little extra to have your store name and contact info printed on the card, which a lot of shops did, making sure to also pay to make the card as grossly overpowerd as possible so everyone wanted them for their decks.
So tell me, did they actually have the guts to approach ADB about getting a custom Galactic Empires card from them? I remember John joking about it way back when, but never believed they'd do it.
If it makes Steve feel any better, I know he's still making money off quite of few of them. The ones who are still gaming at all switched over to FedCom en masse when it came out, and are total zombies for the game. They'd probably buy a booster pack of Krebiz and Argonian SSDs from you without blinking. But of course, that would be violating their IP.
starbreaker
Mongoose
Jean said:
Oh, so that's what they are. Sounds like a clone of Full Thrust's Phalons, mechanically. The local store owner was cursing a blue streak over that one the other day - blank back cover, no art, no description. I think he's sworn off blind preorders on anything from ADB from this point on. Maybe if I tell him they're snails he'll change his mind.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
Borak module is actually a preview playtest module, expected to only sell to rabid fans, and only by mail-order. That's why no colour cover or anything. When ADB get enough playtest reports, they'll do the work to turn it into a "real" empire in the SFU. Well, for a given definition of "real". But a real product with a colour cover and marketing blurb on the back and balanced, playable ships and rules.
