Lets talk about the new tunnel rules again...

[Gauntlet-]

Yeah I know this comes up every now and then, but I felt like expressing about it once more.

I just played another evo game and it was pretty good... ignoring shattered of course.

At any rate, I actually like the new tunnel rules now.

I think the random time for them to come out make sense, I can definately see the bugs as not having the proper coordination to do this perfectly every single time. The locational issue is also nice as it represents a bit more of a prior commitment to achieve such astounding earth moving engineering.

It makes more sense frankly.

But I realize we all miss the much more interesting ability to chase the enemy and such, and generally us gamers like more complication; so what I hope they add to these little rules is a hefty dose of modifiers.

For example, a unit with a Burrower Bug would get a bonus to the roll to show up; as well as say allowing you to write down 2 spots and when you emmerge you pick the one you want. (perhaps have these spots within 12 inches of each other)

If you have a Brain Bug it would be cool if he could use an action or 2 actions to send a message to your tunnelers and they would emmerge immediately as opposed to trying to time it right on their own. It would fit nicely with the Brain Bug as a support role (as opposed to the old Brain Bugs artillary role popping the heads of so many Marauder pilots.)

Further more, it would be cool if you could purchase special entrances that would be known to the opponent player before the battle starts, but you could emmerge any unit in tunneling from this tunnel at any time.

Obviously you have to consider costs, and I'm not worried about the specifics so much, but it would add allot of dimension to these quirky rules if you could improve them and complicate them with assets.

 

[human_target]

these add-ons look nice

tell us how it went when you give it a try

s

 

[Galatea]

I still don't like them in any way.
They remove one of the basic strategic components that made the game unique and replace it with - more or less - randomly popping-up troops like we know them from Warhammer 40k.
boooooooooooring.

 

[Goldwyrm]

They remove one of the basic strategic components that made the game unique and replace it with - more or less - randomly popping-up troops like we know them from Warhammer 40k.

I agree with Galatea. Adding house rules to make it more interesting, with more flavor, is fine (and those were good ideas from Gauntlet) but to me it demonstrates how mediocre picking a spot and rolling x+ on a d6 really is as a game mechanic. Mediocre is in comparison to the original tunnelling rules which I feel added more suspense and tension for the Mobile Infantry player as the blips got closer and choices between a blip of unknown quantity and advancing surface units have to be made.. "Teleporting" Bugs don't add that, they may as well be Chaos Terminators.

Another GM and I are running a 20,000 point game this saturday. We might try using single reactions from SST:Evo for some of the unit types, but we're definitely not going to the new tunnel rules.

I've also got something like 3 packs of the Galeforce 9 tunnel markers and a number of hand made tunnel entrances and a bug central that I'm not giving up.

 

[Wolfsbane]

What new Tunneling rules ?

 

[Gauntlet-]

good question- you should look at S&P preview articles online.


I think what it comes down to is that I can finally accept that chasing units from under ground was never really part of any SST background, and frankly pretty unfair.

In the movie, Book, or CGI you never really see troopers running from bugs detected underground, they either detected them and acted accordingly to avoid them, but far more often were ambushed.

Its a surprise attack more than an envelopment/pursuit strategy. In old SST we have the latter, in Evo we get the surprise... its just not very intellectually challenging, which is why I'm looking for ways to enhance it. In some ways it makes it far more challenging to the bug player who now has to consider the possibillities of 'where MIGHT my enemy be or move to?'

whereas before it was a matter of... 'oh he went that way, okay lets go that way.'

The newer system has more risk and therefore more tension and gives the bugs more to think about, its just that we don't like how little Control we have. If I can invest in ways to enhance my control then I must weigh the benefit of investment over simply more bugs, and that, That is more strategy and is a good fix.

 

[Galatea]

It is less strategy.

With tunneling markers you can bluff the enemy. You can tunnel three sqauds of 5 Warriors on the left flank - making the enemy believe that a serious part of your army is walking there but instead invest in fast-moving units that jump in on the right side and smash him apart if he moves forward.

You can use tunnel markers to block flanks and push the enemy to where you want them.
And you can use them to take out stand&shoot emplacements. With tunneling markers it is no option for the MI player to just hang back in a small Outpost section or Bunker and blast anything apart that moves torwards their position.
They pervent the game from becoming static as well as the old cover rules do.

 

[Wolfsbane]

The original Heinlein novel, and AH boardgame, have the MI escorting the vulnerable "Special Talent" psychic who 'maps out' the Arachnids underground activity - I'd like to blend the 'old' and 'new' SSTMG Tunneling rules, I think that tension from Tunnel 'blips' is very cinematic.
Movies from Aliens to Tremors have used that plot-device nicely.

 

[Iain McGhee]

I read somewhere (probably S+P) that the SICON Agent would be able to detect tunnel exit points in EVO. Might well be other ways planned too, like the listening posts in the book or the M9 suits in the CGI.

 

[Quark]

It's true that the EVO rules do give more of a surprise, but it shouldn't be a surprise to army DOING THE TUNNELING IMO. I'm curious-our group felt that tunnleing was somewhat under-powered. Were some other groups having trouble with it?

 

[Gauntlet-]

My group never felt it was over or under powered. Though some tactics are generally hated.

I personally hate Pathfinder Reaver Missiles, my enemies hate Thorny Tankers, popping up eating and going back down lol.

But thats how games are sometimes.

 

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

These are just the basic rules. Hopefully the advanced rules in the book will have all these things and more.

 

[cOwgummi]

Yeah well seriously, in my opinion, the whole "well don't judge the game now, cause these are just the BASIC rules" is incredibly stupid.
I won't buy anything I don't know, and I'm pretty sure too that the advanced rules will not be fundamentally different from the basic rules cause, well the BASIC rules are kinda like, the base for the ADVANCED rules, right?

So yeah, the new tunneling rules are bad, and that doesn't get any better with them MAYBE being fixed in the future advanced rulebook, and until then everybody has to play and promo with the stupid basic rules...

 

[Galatea]

@c0wgummi: Though I agree with you in all points, you haven't even played one damn game till now (not even SST1), so instead of complaining about the "new" may-be-come-one-day Evo you should prabably try a game in 1.0!
Chris is really hot about smashing your Exos into pieces with his own ones...

 

[cOwgummi]

yeah well and it honestly doesn't look like I will someplace soon in the future.

We had that whole "playing a game without support" discussion already.
So yeah looks like Chris can wait a while for that to happen.

And also I can criticise and complain all I want, ESPECIALLY about stuff like that that has nothing to do with gaming experience in 1.0.

 

[Gauntlet-]

Fine but that isn't what this topic is about, its about the new tunneling rules specifically. So your general disgruntledness about the new rules is kind of meaningless and out of place.

Also since its about tunnelling you should learn about the old rules so you can fully appreciate the differences.

Complain away, but complain about tunnels.

 

[cOwgummi]

I don't have to, cause everything about how the old tunneling rules were superior has already been said.

I know the old rules after all :wink:

And I just don't like when people use "arguments" like the "the advanced rules will fix it" one, thats the same category as "well lets see if YOU can do it better" or similiar stuff...

 

[Paladin]

If you have a Brain Bug it would be cool if he could use an action or 2 actions to send a message to your tunnelers and they would emmerge immediately as opposed to trying to time it right on their own. It would fit nicely with the Brain Bug as a support role (as opposed to the old Brain Bugs artillary role popping the heads of so many Marauder pilots.).

I think using the Brain bug's bonus action to try again to emerge would be a reasonable option.

Further more, it would be cool if you could purchase special entrances that would be known to the opponent player before the battle starts, but you could emmerge any unit in tunneling from this tunnel at any time.

This sounds like a logical off shoot of emplacements that would be viable for the bugs. You can either wait and dig or pay a small cost to start with them initially.

 

[MaxSteiner]

God I hadn't even thought of that!
What do bug players spend their points on in Evo if not tunneling assets?!?!?!

 

[cOwgummi]

even more bugs?