Leaving a HeroQuest

GianniVacca

Mongoose
My understanding based on page 64 of Magic of Glorantha is that there are three ways of leaving a HeroQuest:

1/ by completing it
2/ by getting killed and surviving the Persistence test
3/ by using a Break HeroQuest spell

Is this correct?

The rules sort of mention a 4th way 'massive deviation from legend' but I am not sure as to its consequences.

My players are stranded in a HeroQuest and I think that they are going to voluntarily commit suicide in order to escape it.

Should I allow them to do this?

Please help! The game is ongoing!
 
GianniVacca said:
My understanding based on page 64 of Magic of Glorantha is that there are three ways of leaving a HeroQuest:

1/ by completing it
2/ by getting killed and surviving the Persistence test
3/ by using a Break HeroQuest spell

Is this correct?

The rules sort of mention a 4th way 'massive deviation from legend' but I am not sure as to its consequences.

My players are stranded in a HeroQuest and I think that they are going to voluntarily commit suicide in order to escape it.

Should I allow them to do this?

Please help! The game is ongoing!

OK, are they God Learners or are they traditional folk performing a myth?

Jeff
 
Although I don't have the HeroQuesting articles handy at work ...

I'd allow them to Complete the HeroQuest by going to a natural exit point and then using standard Mythology to exit the heroQuest.

So, if the PCs are Orlanthi then they could make their way to the Storm Tula and then use a fairly standard way to exit.

I'd say that most experienced HeroQuestors would know of at least one natural way out of a HeroQuest and can try and engineer this out of a HeroQuest that is going bad. It means they won't get anything good from the HeroQuest but probably means that they won't get anything bad from it, either.

Depending on how they exited, what happened and what the HeroQuest was for, this might be seen as a success or a fialure or neither.

Of course, this doesn't use the HeroQuesting rules as such. It is more of a meta-quest approach.

Godlearners can just bug out fo the Quest. In this case they use the Break HeroQuest spell to create an exit point of their own and travel through it.
 
GianniVacca said:
My players are stranded in a HeroQuest and I think that they are going to voluntarily commit suicide in order to escape it.

Should I allow them to do this?

In so much as the GM should let the players do (or attempt to do) anything they like, the answer is probably "yes". But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, or that it will work the way they think it will.

When you Heroquest you take on the part of one of the mythical particpants in the original myth, and attempt to use what happens on the Heroplane to reflect on the Mundane world. Now sometimes something goes wrong, and this can have unhappy consequences for the questors and thier supporters. A classic example is Belintar getting ambushed by Jar-eel in the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death, which has resulted in the end of the Pharoh and his rule. - Getting killed on the Hero Plane did not just result in him not completing the ritual!

If you get killed on a Heroquest it means your quest fails. Whatever result you were hoping for does not happen, and in all probability, you strengthen the opposition. (So if you are questing Orlanth and Aroka to end a drought and the Dragon wins then you have probably made the drought longer and more severe, ). However, you went down fighting, so to speak. Heroic Struggles often involve coming back from the brink to overcome overwhelming odds, so although this is undoubtably a setback it is one that, with luck, one that can be overcome. How much worse is it to just give up and commit suicide? That sort of thing is very difficult to recover from. I would imagine not only will it make the current situation much worse than a "normal" failure would, but it will also weaken the questors link with the god or hero they are representing, and the whole community that support them will have a harder time successfully completing that myth in the future.

Alternatively, or additionally, Suicide is often supposed to cause a link between the victim and the location, so maybe you can escape from the Heroplane this way, but any future attempt to enter the Heroplane will always end up dumping you back in this myth, at least until you are able to properly resolve the issues (sort of like haunting yourself...)

As Simon suggests, the "proper" way to deal with this is to make your way (back) to a a culturally appropriate crossover point where you can leave in relative safety (depending on the exact nature of the quest and the problem you were having when you decided to give up), or to follow the nature of the part you are playing and solving the issue that way.

More risky is to strike off on a truly experimental Heroquest - try and find your way to some place on the Heroplane you know and then "jump quests" to find a way out. (Orlanthi might head for Kero Finn, and join the flyers circling it to return home on the (next) Holy day - or just somewhere else that offers an escape from the Heroplane - though you may have to deal with whatever or whoever normally uses it... (You can escape from the Heroplane through the Castle of Lead, for instance, but then you still have to escape from the Trolls...)

Finally, if you, as the GM want to help them escape, you can always send them some help. Eurmal is always breaking the rules, and sticking his nose in where he's not supposed to be, so have a Trickster suddenly appear from behind a tree, or out of a rabbit hole or whatever seems appropriate and lead them safely home - or at least somewhere else. Of course there may be a price to pay for this aid, and they may not find out what it is until later, but that's what you get for getting invovled with tricksters...
 
soltakss said:
I'd allow them to Complete the HeroQuest by going to a natural exit point and then using standard Mythology to exit the heroQuest...
Godlearners can just bug out fo the Quest. In this case they use the Break HeroQuest spell to create an exit point of their own and travel through it.

I agree with Simon's suggestions with this caveat: DO WHAT YOUR STORY REQUIRES. There are no hard and set rules regarding heroquests. If your story would be improved by letting the players run back to where they started the heroquest (Orlanth's Hall, Yelm's Tower, whereever), then do it.

Or let them fail and return to where they started their quest, with all the consequences of failure.

Or let them get lost in the Otherworld; make them serve as thralls to cruel immortal sky lords, or be forced to follow a strange god to find a new path back, or seduce the daughter of the Mountain King to escape from the Black Pit.

But if they were to commit suicide, I'd punish them horribly. Did their god kill itself in the God Time? Did their community entrust its magic to them? Or even worse, it means they are dead in the Otherworld - send them to the Court of the Dead and force them to wander around the Underworld!

Jeff
 
Thanks all for the suggestions. I forgot to specify a few things:

JEFF-> The characters are GodLearners. But they entered the Hero Plane through deceit by other GodLearners. It's their very first Quest and they are completely inexperienced in terms of HeroQuesting. They do not have access to the Break HeroQuest spell.

SIMON-> They are within a Dara Happan myth (and their major was Orlanthis :) ). They wouldn't know a 'natural exit point' in this context. AND they are inexperienced.

DUNCAN AND JEFF-> I like the idea of them "jump questing" to some other place of the Otherworld where they will live another adventure.
 
GianniVacca said:
Thanks all for the suggestions. I forgot to specify a few things:

JEFF-> The characters are GodLearners. But they entered the Hero Plane through deceit by other GodLearners. It's their very first Quest and they are completely inexperienced in terms of HeroQuesting. They do not have access to the Break HeroQuest spell.

SIMON-> They are within a Dara Happan myth (and their major was Orlanthis :) ). They wouldn't know a 'natural exit point' in this context. AND they are inexperienced.

DUNCAN AND JEFF-> I like the idea of them "jump questing" to some other place of the Otherworld where they will live another adventure.

Lots of things could happen. Perhaps they wander off to Shargash's Red Planet and find themselves in Alkoth surrounded by demons (but where it is possible to return to the mundane world). Perhaps they find a previously unknown path to Arkat's Star(s) and are turned against the MSE.

The main thing is figure out where you would like your game to go and let them run with it. But this should be a major defining moment in your players' story arc.

Jeff
 
GianniVacca said:
JEFF-> The characters are GodLearners. But they entered the Hero Plane through deceit by other GodLearners. It's their very first Quest and they are completely inexperienced in terms of HeroQuesting. They do not have access to the Break HeroQuest spell.

That's the problem with inexperience - you don't know how to do things well. They'll learn, if they survive.

There was a description somewhere of how the Godlearners learned about HeroQuesting. They found a gate to the Storm realm and sent some wizards through but they all died. Then they sent some more and they died. Then they sent a hundred through and they all died. Then they sent another hundred through and one returned. "Ah!", they said, "Success!".

So, losing one little Godlearner party comes under the "Acceptable Losses" category.

GianniVacca said:
SIMON-> They are within a Dara Happan myth (and their major was Orlanthis :) ). They wouldn't know a 'natural exit point' in this context. AND they are inexperienced.

Because they are inexperienced then you, as a GM, could drop some hints as to how they could survive without all killing themselves. If they are in a Dara Happan myth then they could meet Dara Happan HeroQuestors and could be guided back to safety, or they could encounter other HeroQuestors and follow them back or force them to help. Perhaps there could be some EWF HeroQuestors performing a Sun Dragon Quest or some anti-EWF Questors who can ally with the Godlearners against their common enemy.

Natural exit points are easy to find. They can come across an abandoned Sun temple and find that there is a gateway back to the mundane plane. They can reach a safe point - one of the Dara Happan cities, a Lokarnos wagon train, a Sun Dragon temple or something similar - and be guided back. They could even encounter other God Learner HeroQuestors and ask them for help.

GianniVacca said:
DUNCAN AND JEFF-> I like the idea of them "jump questing" to some other place of the Otherworld where they will live another adventure.

It is possible but dangerous. If you don't know the myths then you rely on your gut feeling rather than knowledge.

If they manage to find themselves in another Quest or another place in the otherworld then they will have the same problems of not knowing where they are, who they are dealing with or what to do.

I would say the Suicide option was a valid one for HeroQuestors of the EWF - they can always perform the Utuma Ritual and exit gracefully. However, this isn't a normally valid cultural option for Godlearners.

As a matter of interest, what Quest are they doing? How did they get stranded and why do they feel they have no other way out?
 
soltakss said:
GianniVacca said:
JEFF-> The characters are GodLearners. But they entered the Hero Plane through deceit by other GodLearners. It's their very first Quest and they are completely inexperienced in terms of HeroQuesting. They do not have access to the Break HeroQuest spell.

That's the problem with inexperience - you don't know how to do things well. They'll learn, if they survive.

There was a description somewhere of how the Godlearners learned about HeroQuesting. They found a gate to the Storm realm and sent some wizards through but they all died. Then they sent some more and they died. Then they sent a hundred through and they all died. Then they sent another hundred through and one returned. "Ah!", they said, "Success!".

So, losing one little Godlearner party comes under the "Acceptable Losses" category.

That's the very reason the other GodLearners send them there: to get rid of them.

soltakss said:
GianniVacca said:
DUNCAN AND JEFF-> I like the idea of them "jump questing" to some other place of the Otherworld where they will live another adventure.

It is possible but dangerous. If you don't know the myths then you rely on your gut feeling rather than knowledge.

If they manage to find themselves in another Quest or another place in the otherworld then they will have the same problems of not knowing where they are, who they are dealing with or what to do.

I would say the Suicide option was a valid one for HeroQuestors of the EWF - they can always perform the Utuma Ritual and exit gracefully. However, this isn't a normally valid cultural option for Godlearners.

As a matter of interest, what Quest are they doing? How did they get stranded and why do they feel they have no other way out?

They are doing a non-canon minor Quest I devised. They got stranded because they do not know anything about Dara Happan mythology.
 
My favourite - make them do each station over and over again until they work it out. The old going round in circles in the dark wood motif.
 
I think a Draconic heroquester should only commit Utuma if it would be Right Action - in other words, at an appropriate station of the HQ. Dying at some other time risks leaving that heroquest in a state of Imbalance, meaning you will be unable to make any further spiritual progress ever until you've returned to that Quest and resolved the matter successfully.

...And since you can never repeat the exact same heroquest twice, you've possibly just doomed your immortal soul for all eternity. Oops.

(Of course, it's always the GM's call on whether Utuma would actually be Right Action at a particular point in time).


As for non-EWF heroquests: I'd say that committing suicide on a heroquest will give you the enhanced magical ability to die when next faced with danger. :twisted:
 
If you get killed on a Heroquest it means your quest fails.

Its only tangential to the thread, but this isn't necessarily true. There are quests where you are supposed to get killed. If the original divity your are incarnating was killed (and then presumeably got resurected/bargained with death/fought their way out of hell or whatever) NOT getting killed can fail the quest.

You might have them all killed by an overwhelming enemy... and then it turn out that that was what was supposed to happen, and they are back on track!
 
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