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[Valen is my name]

i thought that jump point bombing was incredibly hard and not worth the hassle, and surely creating a jump point on/near a ship would do some damage to the ship making the point (a collision or something?) where is it explained to jp bomb and is it really worth it?

EDIT: sorry just found the jump point bomb thread

 

[Burger]

That was a jump point inside a jump gate.

Indeed it was, but a jump point created by a gate is still a jump point.

LBH

But a jump point created by a jump gate cannot be used as a jump point bomb, in the current rules. Therefore, there is a difference. Maybe the gate absorbs the energies of the shock wave, so if another point is created inside it, it is all released at once? Then it wouldn't work with 2 JP's.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Maybe the gate absorbs the energies of the shock wave, so if another point is created inside it, it is all released at once? Then it wouldn't work with 2 JP's.

Since the jump point is fully created within the gate structure, the ships don´t get into contact with the vortex, which itself seems to be the most dangerous part of a JPB on the screen...

Apart from that, I had the impression that the blast of the "bonehead maneuvre" resulted from the jump gate itself exploding because of the overload (at one point we hear about a JG needing several days to be safely activated or deactivated, to avoid blowing it up with desastrous results); in that case opening a JP opened by a ship within a JP from another ship should be bad for at least one of their Jump engines (and in turn for the ship around the engine).

 

[emperorpenguin]

Apart from that, I had the impression that the blast of the "bonehead maneuvre" resulted from the jump gate itself exploding because of the overload (at one point we hear about a JG needing several days to be safely activated or deactivated, to avoid blowing it up with desastrous results); in that case opening a JP opened by a ship within a JP from another ship should be bad for at least one of their Jump engines (and in turn for the ship around the engine).

you're probably right, remember the Vorchan opening the jump point inside B5's jump gate didn't succeed because the struts were moved far enough apart

 

[tneva82]

in that case opening a JP opened by a ship within a JP from another ship should be bad for at least one of their Jump engines (and in turn for the ship around the engine).

Unless they happen to be white stars both are going to be dead anyway. Rules for explosion: 14" radius, everybody inside destroyed(I mean the blast blew out shadow vessel in one go. That's powerfull enough that there's no point adding it into game with AD's and trait's) :lol:

Well I suppose you could say it's bad for jump engines. Afterall they get destroyed(along with rest of the ship) :wink:

 

[cordas]

Why are you discussing JP bombimg here when there is a thread already about it....

 

[Burger]

in that case opening a JP opened by a ship within a JP from another ship should be bad for at least one of their Jump engines (and in turn for the ship around the engine).

Unless they happen to be white stars both are going to be dead anyway. Rules for explosion: 14" radius, everybody inside destroyed(I mean the blast blew out shadow vessel in one go. That's powerfull enough that there's no point adding it into game with AD's and trait's) :lol:

Well I suppose you could say it's bad for jump engines. Afterall they get destroyed(along with rest of the ship) :wink:

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

 

[cordas]

in that case opening a JP opened by a ship within a JP from another ship should be bad for at least one of their Jump engines (and in turn for the ship around the engine).

Unless they happen to be white stars both are going to be dead anyway. Rules for explosion: 14" radius, everybody inside destroyed(I mean the blast blew out shadow vessel in one go. That's powerfull enough that there's no point adding it into game with AD's and trait's) :lol:

Well I suppose you could say it's bad for jump engines. Afterall they get destroyed(along with rest of the ship) :wink:

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

Goto the JPB thread for an answer...

 

[tneva82]

The bonehead manouver required a jump point to be opened inside a jump gate. The discussions following it suggest that it will only work if a jump gate is used (and destroyed).

There is no on-screen evidence as to what would happen if a jump point is opened inside another jump point.

Bonehead manouver is not something you want to exactly use all the time. Only white star was fast enough and even it barely. If that explosion had happened even bit sooner good bye Sheridan...

So no wonder we have no onscreen evidence. Only idiot would use that tactic except in dire situation and since 2 jump points would need 2 ships we never saw such dire situation where it could have been used...

There's no reason to think 2 jump points would not cause explosion in similar way. Both have lots of energy involved.

 

[Burger]

Only idiot would use that tactic except in dire situation and since 2 jump points would need 2 ships we never saw such dire situation where it could have been used...

What like the Narn-Centauri War? Or the Earth-Minbari War? Or the Shadow War?

The Battle of the Line would have been over pretty quickly, if 2 EA ships had been willing to sacrifice themselves... which they all were.

There's no reason to think 2 jump points would not cause explosion in similar way. Both have lots of energy involved.

There is no reason to think it would be the same, either. Its all just speculation. There is no evidence either way.

 

[tneva82]

The Battle of the Line would have been over pretty quickly, if 2 EA ships had been willing to sacrifice themselves... which they all were.

They would have caused maybe lots of casualties and then had no ships left to defend against rest of Minbari's. Yup. Great tactic. VERY great tactic. Let's give up straight away.


Same with other 2 campaigns you mentioned. Shadow war would be especially funny. Only reason it now worked was because it came from hyper space to real space and didn't have time to realise what was happening. In reality you wouldn't have that way so when you try to do that shadow ships would instantly go to hyper space(which they can do at will) and all you would accomplish is blow your own ships for no good.

Then shadows would re-emerge and finish up what's left.

Yep. EXCELENT strategy.

 

[thePirv]

The Battle of the Line would have been over pretty quickly, if 2 EA ships had been willing to sacrifice themselves... which they all were.

They would have caused maybe lots of casualties and then had no ships left to defend against rest of Minbari's. Yup. Great tactic. VERY great tactic. Let's give up straight away.


Same with other 2 campaigns you mentioned. Shadow war would be especially funny. Only reason it now worked was because it came from hyper space to real space and didn't have time to realise what was happening. In reality you wouldn't have that way so when you try to do that shadow ships would instantly go to hyper space(which they can do at will) and all you would accomplish is blow your own ships for no good.

Then shadows would re-emerge and finish up what's left.

Yep. EXCELENT strategy.

Actually, since the EA ships at the line were hardly able to hurt a Sharlin, never mind the multitude of Sharlins that jumped in, sacrificing a couple of smaller Jump Capable ships to wipe out probably upwards of 5 or 10 Sharlins would have been a fantastic idea.
The problem comes from the fact that ships emerging from Jump Points in the show don't really take that long to do so, whereas in the game, the time between a JP forming and the Ship emerging has been prolonged in an attempt at balance. Show wise, it probably wouldn't be possible to spool up Jump Engines and target them effectively within a forming Jump Point before the forming JP is open and closed again.

 

[cordas]

damn I hate having a dicussion spread over 2 threads, esp when 1 of the threads is about the subject....

Maybe multipul jump point bombing isn't used as a military tactic because it DOES NOT WORK. This makes sense in what we see in the TV show, and in game play terms.

 

[Burger]

The Battle of the Line would have been over pretty quickly, if 2 EA ships had been willing to sacrifice themselves... which they all were.

They would have caused maybe lots of casualties and then had no ships left to defend against rest of Minbari's. Yup. Great tactic. VERY great tactic. Let's give up straight away.

Hang on a minute; we're talking about the same battle here, right? When Earth was being attacked and every single human being was going to die? There would have been no ships left to defend anyway. At least using this tactic they would hurt the enemy a lot.

And, no need for the sarcasm.

 

[tneva82]

Hang on a minute; we're talking about the same battle here, right? When Earth was being attacked and every single human being was going to die? There would have been no ships left to defend anyway. At least using this tactic they would hurt the enemy a lot.

Fair point though you forgot the GOAL of the line: Delay

Blow up EA fleet in one big bonehead manouver, blocking fleet gone, Minbari can then proceed to wipe out EA refugee escape ships at will and bombard the Earth.

By using bonehead manouver you have(aptly enough since it's BONEHEAD manouver) failed in your goal, that is ensure that escape ships have as much time as possible to get as much refugees as possible into safety.

 

[Burger]

How about, 2 ships perform bonehead, then rest of EA fleet launches and engages Minbari survivors? Inflict massive damage, and cause delay.

 

[cordas]

I seem to remember that Earths tactic at the battle of the line wasn't to try and hurt the Minbari specificaly, but it was to buy time for as many transports carrying people to escape as possible. Maybe they felt that if they did this now it would make the Minbari hunt down and destroy those transports as well....

That said I still think the reason we never saw it used was because it didn't work. Its simply to much of an attractive tactic to ignore... You could even build fully automated JP generators and just deploy them hyperspace, making them powerfull enough to open 3-300 jump points per turn and simply saturate where ever you wanted to attack. If it was possible then races would do it.....

 

[emperorpenguin]

remember too that Earthforce deployed devices meant to prevent jump point formation at the battle of the line

they failed but the theory was the Minbari couldn't jump in, therefore the EA wouldn't have been able to use jump point bombs

 

[tneva82]

How about, 2 ships perform bonehead, then rest of EA fleet launches and engages Minbari survivors? Inflict massive damage, and cause delay.

So all it needs for failure is for a) one point opening in wrong place(almost certain since EA jump engines aren't most accurate things) b) minbari blowing out one of them before they even notice Minbari came(notice how fast Minbari can come and shoot?).

You needed lot more than 2 ships for that. And how many jump engine ships EA had there anyway? Seemed mostly fighters and shuttles from the ItB...

 

[lastbesthope]

That was a jump point inside a jump gate.

Indeed it was, but a jump point created by a gate is still a jump point.

LBH

But a jump point created by a jump gate cannot be used as a jump point bomb, in the current rules. Therefore, there is a difference. Maybe the gate absorbs the energies of the shock wave, so if another point is created inside it, it is all released at once? Then it wouldn't work with 2 JP's.

No but the comment I replied to was about opening a JP in a JP, not stacking JPBs.

And besides, nothing in the rules prevents a JP being opened within the JPB area of effect of a JP.

The only thing I can think of preventing two JPs being stacked too closely is the no overlapping counters rule.

LBH