Large ships and asteroid belts discussion

[SneakyPete]

I just finished a 800 pt 3 way battle which featured a centrally located planet with rings that were counted as an asteroid field. Playing Romulans I ended up in a crossfire after my initial Plasma barrages took out 3 enemy ships. From that point I went cloaked and made a run up the center between the two opposing teams (both Fed, one a mass of 7 Frigates and the other a w/ 2 FFGS, a BC and a CA) making a beeline for the planet's asteroid belt.
By the time I reached the belt I was down to a KC9R still in good condition and a BH just above crippled, my two KE's were destroyed. I risked taking some damage to go fast enough to be in position to achieve orbit at the start of the next turn and my DN ended up with 6 damage to shields when it failed the CQ9 roll to enter the field. The BH passed the check and took no damage luckily. From that point until the end of the battle on my ships took almost no damage due to the Stealth 5 bonus and the opponents reluctance to shoot at a target that had a much higher chance of being ineffective, especially when I used Take Evasive Action as well while in the Field. About five turns later the DN and BH remained virtually untouched since they entered the field, while lobbing Plasma and phasers from time to time as they circled the small planet taking out a couple ships and the game ended with them as victors when just 5 turns before they were running for their lives.

Now I am not trying to judge any rules based of one game and the tactics opponents may have used in that game, but it does seem to me when thinking about it that a large ship like a DN or Battlecruiser should have a much higher risk of taking damage in a asteroid field as a shuttle in the rules already does recieve a much higher chance of avoiding damage. They have the shields and hull to afford the cost of entering the field and failing the CQ and then can sit their and enjoy a huge advantage (Stealth 5+) that is not two way like dust clouds are. Unless their is an objective point that requires the ship to accomplish something outside the Asteroid Field he has no incentive to leave it, of course the enemy has the option to go in after him though.....

Perhaps large ships (BC's and above) should have to make the CQ every turn instead of just upon entering, or possibly go with a CQ penalty of 2 or 3. Another option that would be interesting (IMO) but not in line with the simplified ruleset of ACtA is that big ships would have to roll the CQ every turn and if failed they get hit by the number of AD equal to their move speed in inches as when first entering, BUT they can use their defenses to avoid actual hits (phasers, drones, tractors).

Anyway just food for thought, and it would be nice to hear what others think.

 

[Greg Smith]

Could your opponent not move well away from the asteroids and attack you with phasers and drones while avoiding your plasma. Or if had a VP advantage, out of range all together?

 

[SneakyPete]

Any phaser duel would be at a serious advantage for the ship in the asteroid field as 1/3 of all enemy hits would on average become misses (both sides lose the precise trait for phasers shooting in and out of the field) Also all DN's generally have a large amount of phasers so they are likely to be somewhat balanced in that armament before deducting the stealth misses.

Drones beyond 18" would also require to roll to hit and therefore also be subject to the stealth 5+ rule. Drones under 18 should hit as usual.

I am not referencing just Romulan DN's, but all races. A Klingon DN in an Asteroid field would have an even greater advantage as it would have a range of 24 and no negatives to shooting out as disruptors have no precise trait to lose.

 

[McKinstry]

Both the ship in an asteroid field and any ship it shoots at get the 5+ save so there should be no advantage.

 

[Rambler]

Drones beyond 18" would also require to roll to hit and therefore also be subject to the stealth 5+ rule. Drones under 18 should hit as usual.

Drones wither fired from greater or less than 18" are affected the same way. Stealth will not alter the to hit roll it only applys to the "hits" once the multihit d6 is rolled.

 

[Da Boss]

Indeed - Stealth is a "save" rather than a modifier.

 

[Rambler]

Any phaser duel would be at a serious advantage for the ship in the asteroid field as 1/3 of all enemy hits would on average become misses (both sides lose the precise trait for phasers shooting in and out of the field).

Umm no, weapon traits are not lost because of asteriod fields. The order is,

1) Roll to hit the target.
2) Determine how many potential hits (multihits) are made.
3) Roll saves for each pontential hits. (All 5s and 6s go away)
4) Roll on the Attack table applying any bonus (Precise or Devistating) or negatives (armour) to resolve damage.

Edit: Okay reread the book and it does indeed seem to be in the spirit of the rules that Asteroids and Dust Clouds cancel the Precise Tarit only so all other Traits remain the same except Precise.

 

[tneva82]

and the opponents reluctance to shoot at a target that had a much higher chance of being ineffective, especially when I used Take Evasive Action as well while in the Field. About five turns later the DN and BH remained virtually untouched since they entered the field, while lobbing Plasma and phasers from time to time as they circled the small planet taking out a couple ships and the game ended with them as victors when just 5 turns before they were running for their lives.

Ummm...So he wasn't shooting against targets when he loses nothing by shooting(it's not like there's ammo limit!) but was sitting there taking fire from them?

What was he doing if he was unwilling to shoot at the ships firing them?

 

[Iain McGhee]

Both the ship in an asteroid field and any ship it shoots at get the 5+ save so there should be no advantage.

That applies only to dust clouds, there's no penalty for shooting out of an asteroid field.

 

[SneakyPete]

What was he doing if he was unwilling to shoot at the ships firing them?

It was a 3 way battle, when faced with the option of shootong at a target with no Stealth and one with Stealth they generally chose the one not in the asteroid belt unless they had a weapon whose arc had no other targets.

Umm no, weapon traits are not lost because of asteriod fields.

From the rule book on the last line under Asteroid Fields:
...whether atttacked from withing the field or outside, as the asteroids interfere with precise locks.

Drones wither fired from greater or less than 18" are affected the same way. Stealth will not alter the to hit roll it only applys to the "hits" once the multihit d6 is rolled.

Reread this rule and you appear to be correct. Although the phrase "a lockon must be achieved" in the stealth trait rule is strange, I am not finding any other reference describing "Lock-ons". Generally stealth is used during cloaking which automatically stops seeking weapons from working, but not in the case of an asteroid field stealth roll.

 

[tneva82]

From the rule book on the last line under Asteroid Fields:
...whether atttacked from withing the field or outside, as the asteroids interfere with precise locks.

That's the fluff text explaining 5+ stealth. For it to ignore precise trait there would need to be "precise trait has no effect against ships in asteroid fields" or to that effect.

Also note the "as" word before that. The part after "as" is reason for the previous part, ie 5+ stealth save. It's not a new rule. It's explanation for the previous rule.

Reread this rule and you appear to be correct. Although the phrase "a lockon must be achieved" in the stealth trait rule is strange, I am not finding any other reference describing "Lock-ons". Generally stealth is used during cloaking which automatically stops seeking weapons from working, but not in the case of an asteroid field stealth roll.

Again fluff text.

 

[billclo]

Any way we can get an "official ruling", Matt, to confirm that units inside an asteroid field do NOT suffer the stealth 5 penalty when firing at a unit outside the asteroid field. In other words, anyone firing at a unit inside the asteroid field has to roll against Stealth 5, but when the unit fires at a target outside the field the target does not gain the Stealth 5 benefit from the asteroids.

I interpret the rule as printed to mean only fire going into the field or from a firing unit inside the field to a target inside the field suffers the Stealth 5 penalty.

Reason I ask is that I want to put some units deployed inside an asteroid field and don't want them to have penalties firing out of the fields...which is the way the rule reads, but being as I may submit the scenario for publication someday I don't want to look stoooopid either.

 

[scoutdad]

Any way we can get an "official ruling", Matt, to confirm that units inside an asteroid field do NOT suffer the stealth 5 penalty when firing at a unit outside the asteroid field. In other words, anyone firing at a unit inside the asteroid field has to roll against Stealth 5, but when the unit fires at a target outside the field the target does not gain the Stealth 5 benefit from the asteroids.

I interpret the rule as printed to mean only fire going into the field or from a firing unit inside the field to a target inside the field suffers the Stealth 5 penalty.

Bill: I'm not Matthew, but here is the pertinent rule:

If attacked while within an asteroid field, a ship will gain the
Stealth 5+ trait (or a +2 bonus to Stealth rolls, if it already
possesses the trait), whether attacked from within the field or
outside, as the asteroids interfere with precise target locks.

From this, it's fairly obvious that only targets insode the asteroid field receive a Stealth +5 penalty.
The last sentence (the one that is confusing everyone) simply means that you receive the penalty whether the ship firing at you is in the same asteroid field or out side of it... either way, asteroids in the vicinity of the target (your ship) interfere with targeting.
There is nothing about a penalty applying to ships in the asteroid field firing at ships outside the field.
This is a valid tactic that we use on a regular basis... in fact, I've already submitted a Call-Out Note regarding this item.

 

[tneva82]

Bill: I'm not Matthew, but here is the pertinent rule:

If attacked while within an asteroid field, a ship will gain the
Stealth 5+ trait (or a +2 bonus to Stealth rolls, if it already
possesses the trait), whether attacked from within the field or
outside, as the asteroids interfere with precise target locks.

From this, it's fairly obvious that only targets insode the asteroid field receive a Stealth +5 penalty.

Yeah. Can't make it more clear without explictly stating the reverse scenario. Ship outside the field is quite obviously not within asteroid field and ergo won't be gaining the trait.

 

[billclo]

Okay, in the absence of a Matt ruling, I'll go with it and use my scenario as designed. It'll be fuuuuuuun. :mrgreen:

 

[Allerka]

What about if both ships are outside an asteroid field, but the field is between them?

 

[Rambler]

Rules are crystal clear on that one Allerka.

Stellar debris will block line of sight between ships on opposite sides of it.

 

[scoutdad]

+1 on Dals comment.
Stellar Debris does indeed block line of sight.

You can fire into, or out of a dust cloud/asteroid field; but not through one.

 

[Allerka]

Rules are crystal clear on that one Allerka.

Stellar debris will block line of sight between ships on opposite sides of it.

I don't remember seeing that line in there anywhere, but that certainly clears it up, so to speak. Thanks.

 

[Rambler]

Rules are crystal clear on that one Allerka.

Stellar debris will block line of sight between ships on opposite sides of it.

I don't remember seeing that line in there anywhere, but that certainly clears it up, so to speak. Thanks.

Page 21 third paragraph,. Sentence starts with Unlike other models... I kept blowing over that line the first couple of times I read the rules as well.