Languages - Reading and Writing

[Supplement Four]

How do you guys handle Reading and Writing in your campaign?

Do you just assume that, if the character knows a language, he can read and write that language?

Or, are you more of a hard-ass when it comes to languages? A character may be able to speak a language but that doesn't mean he can read and write that language (a more realistic approach).

And, do you play favorites with classes? Scholars and Nobles are more likely to know how to read and write a language that they possess, but it seems appropriate that a Barbarian or a Borderer or even a lowly Soldier not know how to read or write some of the languages he knows, if any.

So, what's the rule of the land as far as this topic goes in your game?

 

[Jacek]

I make no assumption on this topic. While playing a barbarian for example, I see no reason for him being literate. He might become this in the course of his adventures but it shall not be easy.

On the other hand I've got this civilized merchant who just has to know his way around with written language, so learning a new language involves learning how to read and write.

In brief, I think it's all the matter of the character and his life to decide, whether he has the chance to learn literacy or not.

 

[Supplement Four]

In brief, I think it's all the matter of the character and his life to decide, whether he has the chance to learn literacy or not.

Understood. Makes sense. And, "I like".

Question, though: If/when the barbarian does become literate, how do you handle allowing him to read and write? Do you just mark the languages he can read and write? You you make him "pay" for it with skill points, buying a Read/Write language skill (so, there would be two for each language: 1 for speak, and 1 to read/write). Or, do you use some other method?



I'm thinking of using your method of letting background and life decide, but I'm also thinking of marking each language to show if the character can also read and write that language.

Something like this:

Cimmerian
Means the character can speak fluently but is illiterate.

Cimmerian +
Means the character is fluent in the language and can read and write some of it.

Cimmerian -
Means the character can speak a little of this language but cannot read or write.

Cimmerian =
Means the character completey fluent and can both read and write.

 

[Hervé]

Most characters generally begin illiterate in my campaigns, unless justified by class (mostly scholars, nobles and temptresses to a lesser extent) or background. I don't have any fixed rule for this (you know of much I like rules! :wink: ) and decide arbitrarily, case by case, if the character can read and write or not, depending on class and background. There's generally no way the average beginning Cimmerian barbarian can read in my games, but if the player can come up with a good reason, why not...

I also tend to gather languages in broad categories. I assume for instance that all hyborian languages share a common root, thus a same alphabet. If a character can read Aquilonian, I rule he read Nemedian or Ophirean too. But that doesn't me to me he can read Stygian or Hyrkanian.

There was a thread on languages on these boards a few years ago. Specialist forum searchers like kintire will probably be able to dig it up for you...

 

[Clovenhoof]

The rules are pretty clear on this. Virtually ALL characters are literate and can read and write all the languages they can speak.
The only exception are a small handful of races, like Picts and Darfari or suchlike. Unless a racial description specifically states illiteracy, the character is literate, as simple as that. The idea that Barbarians would be illiterate is a D&D 3.X relic and does not apply to Conan.

Note that this has been a conscious decision of the designers. Not being able to communicate with foreigners or not being able to read a found letter does not an awesome Sword&Sorcery adventure make. You just waste a lot of table time smattering with the locals, and as GM, you deny yourself a handy plot device.

"On the dead body of the merchant, you find a letter folded in his pocket."

Scenario A:
"What's in the letter?"
"Apparently a friend of the merchant has informed him that he has found an ancient temple and is planning to explore it."
"Awesome! Does it give directions? We are so going there."

Scenario B:
"Great, a piece of paper. Alright folks, I'll be in the bushes, taking a good dump and a wipe."

 

[Jacek]

Question, though: If/when the barbarian does become literate, how do you handle allowing him to read and write? Do you just mark the languages he can read and write? You you make him "pay" for it with skill points, buying a Read/Write language skill (so, there would be two for each language: 1 for speak, and 1 to read/write). Or, do you use some other method?

I'm thinking of using your method of letting background and life decide, but I'm also thinking of marking each language to show if the character can also read and write that language.

Something like this:

"Something like this."

My barbarian is at the moment totally illiterate simply because he is. A hunter from a small village somewhere in the wild, he lived a hermit's life for many years, then travelled with some foreigners. No need for writing or reading. Thus all of his languages are spoken-only by default.

If I'd like to make him literate, I'd favor the story again. If he spent a while with someone who could "draw sounds" in a language, he would ask that person to become his teacher. After some time, at the end of the adventure or after several I would add the mark of literacy to the language skill on his char sheet. Simple as that.

Truth be told, I don't think we've discussed the topic in my gaming group yet. I'll soon know if the others (+GM) approve.

I also tend to gather languages in broad categories. I assume for instance that all hyborian languages share a common root, thus a same alphabet. If a character can read Aquilonian, I rule he read Nemedian or Ophirean too. But that doesn't me to me he can read Stygian or Hyrkanian.

Very nice, Hervé. But there's one more thing. The alphabet alone tells nothing of the meaning of words it helps to present. Besides, the same letters are pronounced in a totally different way in various languages. So the alphabet is a start to reading and writing but it doesn't ensure understanding. Besides, in most cases it's easier (and comes naturally) to speak a language first and then learn to use writing than the other way around.

The rules are pretty clear on this. Virtually ALL characters are literate and can read and write all the languages they can speak.
The only exception are a small handful of races, like Picts and Darfari or suchlike. Unless a racial description specifically states illiteracy, the character is literate, as simple as that. The idea that Barbarians would be illiterate is a D&D 3.X relic and does not apply to Conan.

Note that this has been a conscious decision of the designers. Not being able to communicate with foreigners or not being able to read a found letter does not an awesome Sword&Sorcery adventure make. You just waste a lot of table time smattering with the locals, and as GM, you deny yourself a handy plot device.

I must've missed that rule. Besides it's so unnantural. After all, the reliable approximation of Conan's world is that of medieval Europe at best. It's a place where public formal education is rather uncommon, so only a small part of those more advanced societies and several individuals in the more "primitive" of nations possess the skill of writing.

True, it might complicate the GM's job a bit but there are other ways to throw in a hint, aren't there.

Scenario B:
"Great, a piece of paper. Alright folks, I'll be in the bushes, taking a good dump and a wipe."

Regular thieves, barbarians, peasants, simple people in general would do just that and that's perfectly natural, I think. That's why mixed groups of adventureres are often formed.

 

[Hervé]

I was aware of the literacy rule, but I deemed it a bit too D&Desque for me...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, of course it's unrealistic, but it's also practical.
To rationalize it, I am imagining the writing system in the Hyborian age as a kind of iconographic or logographic script, sort of like Chinese. So not only do all languages share the same alphabet, but actually the same "words", i.e. signs/icons or whatever you call that.

In short, you learn to read and write only _once_ and then it applies to all languages. The only difference between a document written in Hyborian and one written in Zingaran would be things like Syntax.
Technically, this concept would even allow you to read documents written by people whose language you don't understand at all, but that occurs to me only now. (In fact, exactly this is the case in China with Cantonese and Mandarin.)

 

[Vambelte]

Basicaly I do just like Hervé. Just a few individuals care about reading in my conception of the Hyborian Age. I don't even follow the rule of one extra language per Int bonus. I just try to elaborate so every PC have one language in commom at the beginning of the campaign.

 

[Jacek]

Yep, that's pretty important and still sometimes forgotten.

 

[Spectator]

Well, of course it's unrealistic, but it's also practical.
To rationalize it, I am imagining the writing system in the Hyborian age as a kind of iconographic or logographic script, sort of like Chinese. So not only do all languages share the same alphabet, but actually the same "words", i.e. signs/icons or whatever you call that.

In short, you learn to read and write only _once_ and then it applies to all languages. The only difference between a document written in Hyborian and one written in Zingaran would be things like Syntax.
Technically, this concept would even allow you to read documents written by people whose language you don't understand at all, but that occurs to me only now. (In fact, exactly this is the case in China with Cantonese and Mandarin.)

I think this is extremely far-fetched, since the only practical example was of one language. I think it is much more realistic to see subtle differences between closely related and geographically related scripts and greater differences between distant lands (Think Vanir runic markings vs. stygian pictographs/hieroglyphs, with some shemetic script (looking like hebrew or arabic, supposedly in my world view) vs. Hyborian phonetic alphabet type scripts). I think that is what is and would be realistically conceivable. Throw in some ancient and off-beat languages like Zamorian, Lemurian, and what Acheronian for the extremely creepy looking font/ script/ whatever and you have a nice hodge-podge of realistic diversity.

I just don't like the idea of a hyperborean being able to go to stygia and with a pen and stylus communicate effectively with the locals by writing his questions down and not worrying about speaking a word.

The modern chinese script concept you mentioned would allow that to happen and that would lose the mystery and magic and diversity the Thurian Continent possesses.

Just my opinion.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, the idea that by such a system you could logically read languages you can't speak occured to me only yesterday, and I agree that that's not exactly desirable (and not covered by the rules, either).

That said, I'm over and past my simulationist phase. Rules don't have to be realistic. If the rule says you can read and write any language you speak, then I'm happy to just go with it.

A common phonetic script would also do the trick, I presume. Keep in mind that orthography is a rather modern invention, and up to a few hundred years ago basically everyone would write phonetically anyway.

 

[DooMJake]

It is covered. Decipher script.

 

[Supplement Four]

It is covered. Decipher script.

That's a good catch, but it applies to written languages the character doesn't know how to speak. We're talking about being able to speek latin but not read it.

Still, you're right in that this skill could be used for GMs who don't use the literacy rule.

 

[Vambelte]

Decipher script was one the skills I cut off from my games... along whit balance, concentration, disable device, disguise, forgery, search, tumble and use rope...

I just don't like those skills for the setting. Howard thives don't go around tumbling, disarming traps or producing fale documents... in fact I don't believe there is a lot of confidence in a written document on the Hyborian Age.

But that's just my view, and I don't expect anyone to agree whit my view... well, maybe my players...

 

[Supplement Four]

The rules are pretty clear on this. Virtually ALL characters are literate and can read and write all the languages they can speak.

Where are the rules clear on this? I'm trying to look it up, but under the Language section in the Races chapter of 2E, reading and writing is not specifically addressed.

Got a page number?

 

[Clovenhoof]

I may have to eat my words here. I tried to look it up but I don't find it in the Conan core book either.
Basically what I do when something's not in the Conan book, is I look it up in the SRD. Which of course may require some adaptation.
In the SRD, we find:

Literacy: Any character except a barbarian can read and write all the languages he or she speaks.

Which is because the SRD Barbarian has the specific trait "Illiterate" in its class description:

Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Now in Conan, Illiteracy is not a Barbarian Class trait. But we do find it as racial trait of certain races, like Picts. Here, too, we find that an illiterate character may spend 2 skill points to gain literacy.

The rest is extrapolation. If some races are specificied as illiterate (and can remedy this by spending 2 skill points), this means by default that everyone else is _not_ illiterate.

But I will give you that it doesn't appear to be clearly written in the Conan rules. Maybe an oversight, but maybe also intentional to allow groups to handle the issue how they find it fitting.

 

[Supplement Four]

Maybe an oversight, but maybe also intentional to allow groups to handle the issue how they find it fitting.

Sure. It's just that the Conan game does such a great job of addressing most issues. I'd figure one like this would be expressed.

I'm mucho OK with the GM deciding on the topic. I was just curious what the rules said before I broke them. :wink: