Land Navigation

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

When the ship’s sensors mapped the planet, it would have picked a few reasonably useful points of reference automatically; something that could be identified even under adverse conditions. The location the magnetic pole deviates from the axis of rotation, a cluster of easily identified volcanoes, a cluster of radioactive isotopes, a lake in a continent-sized island, and so on. Since the players bothered to go there, those maps are already in the Ship’s Flight Computer History, if not also as a database entry. While not as easy as looking up a deliberately prepared map made by the crew itself with reference points directly relevant to the party members (“There’s that big mountain we saw!”), it’s still in a file somewhere; the players just have to dig it out, open it up, and do some orienteering.

Strictly speaking, this is “the imagery route”; it’s just a matter of using the image portions of the sensor mapping data, interpreting the non-image data as an image and analyzing it that way, or whatever other approach. It really is the same thing.

 

[Reynard]

Or you just use those thousands of highly visible islands as markers straight to your particular island. Can't get much more macro and simple even if all you do is look out a ship's window. Worrying about micro landmarks will come up when you hover over the target island and need to pinpoint the place where the case is hidden. No radioactive necessary unless they really stand out for some reason.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

HSlam, how did/will things eventually work out in your game about this?

 

[HSlam]

HSlam, how did/will things eventually work out in your game about this?

Well, still ongoing. The group split so most of them don't know that the briefcase is "lost" right now. The two characters that do know are one (or maybe 2 depending on decisions) jumps from joining the main part of the group.

The briefcase was stolen from a pirate ship captain affiliated with a fairly well organized pirate band operating on the fringes of Imperial space in this sector. It contains some personal files, codes, some hard currency, and (most importantly) the deep space coordinates the pirates use as a "safe house" and refueling point between systems.

The captain that the briefcase was stolen from is chasing the main part of the group. The larger group of pirates is unaware that their refueling point coordinates may have been stolen (they're about to find out about that). The main group of characters is unaware of whats in the briefcase, the two that split off and "hid" or "lost" it do know whats in it.

as they say, time will tell how it all works out.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Why exactly would it be “lost”, per se? Unless they washed up on shore while unconscious, and were then kidnapped from the island, they would have used some relatively modern tech vehicle to get to and/or away from it; at which point, they have a log of where they parked in the vehicle’s computer.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Unless they washed up on shore while unconscious, and were then kidnapped from the island, they would have used some relatively modern tech vehicle to get to and/or away from it; at which point, they have a log of where they parked in the vehicle’s computer.

Hand-waving.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Yes, hand-waving is clearly what got them into this mess. If the vehicles were properly described, it would be clear that the players have everything they need to go back to where they were, just like you could with the GPS in your car. Realism, yo.

 

[Reynard]

Yet this is a GAME and sometimes the referee is not All Knowing. Oops. Realism doesn't matter one wit. Even well paid scriptwriters make goofs creating plot holes and referees tend to have a LOT less time and resources making a perfect, brilliant scenario.

 

[alex_greene]

Yet this is a GAME and sometimes the referee is not All Knowing. Oops. Realism doesn't matter one wit. Even well paid scriptwriters make goofs creating plot holes and referees tend to have a LOT less time and resources making a perfect, brilliant scenario.

Very true. Their success or failure in any regard depends as much on the plot as on the dice.

 

[fusor]

Yet this is a GAME and sometimes the referee is not All Knowing. Oops. Realism doesn't matter one wit. Even well paid scriptwriters make goofs creating plot holes and referees tend to have a LOT less time and resources making a perfect, brilliant scenario.

Paid scriptwriters generally tend to not make really obvious plot holes though. If GMs can't think through the consequences of player actions then as far as I'm concerned they're not very good at being GMs. Personally I think this apparent hatred for realism that some people seem to have is just another manifestation of the anti-intellectualism and love of ignorance that's plaguing society nowadays. It doesn't take a lot of effort to engage one's brain and think through a problem (and at least the OP asked about it, so that's a good sign). But if you think "realism doesn't matter one wit" (sic) then maybe you shouldn't be running or playing in a science fiction RPG - it sounds like you'd be happier playing a pure fantasy setting like D&D.

All of the points that T-T raised are valid. Unless the PCs literally opened a window in their spacecraft as it was flying overhead and dropped the damn suitcase out of that while it was performing evasive maneouvres there should be some record of its approximate location in some log on some vehicle that they could potentially access or figure out. And then that could become a quest to find that vehicle and hack into its computer systems.

 

[HSlam]

"Yes, hand-waving is clearly what got them into this mess. If the vehicles were properly described, it would be clear that the players have everything they need to go back to where they were, just like you could with the GPS in your car. Realism, yo."


Can you elaborate on properly described vehicles? What, in their proper description, doesn't "hand wave" HOW it knows where it is on an unmapped planet?

GPS isn't a very apt analogy here. I could take most GPS units sold in the USA and they wouldn't be able to tell me where I was at if I was standing in Switzerland. The GPS unit would know where it was - it would still be receiving a signal from whatever satellites it could gain, it wouldn't be able to tell me squat because it doesn't have a European map loaded in memory.

A better analogy to the initial question would be finding your car in big parking garage. Sure it's easy if you made a point of reference, i.e. I parked on the north end of level 3, or I parked in Orange lot, etc. However, if I told you to "find the blue Honda civic in that fifteen floor parking garage over there" you'd be closer to the dilemma with the briefcase. In all cases it's easy if you have a reference, hard if you do not. Sure you can hand wave that a reference was made, the question was, what's behind the hand wave?

IMO there's a difference between "level of abstraction" and "hand waving." If you're hand waving you have no details at all at the underlying workings of whats going on - and that's not to say that's an inherently bad thing. It's just that neither you nor your players will ever be able to elaborate on whatever it is that's been waved. There's nothing wrong with that.

A level of abstraction provides another option - players and/or referees can dive into the detail if they feel the need. For example, if you have absolutely no idea what form your food is in on a starship then cutting your calories in order to preserve food can only be dealt with in abstraction. If you know your food is in the form of nutrient paste that your life support pushes thru 3d food printers to change into pleasing forms, then cutting caloric intake may be as simple as pushing buttons. If your food is in the form of actual livestock in the hold then changing your caloric intake is a little more involved. There's a huge range of food options between those two extremes.

The original question involved background detail that could be abstracted, or not, as necessary. yo

 

[fusor]

Can you elaborate on properly described vehicles? What, in their proper description, doesn't "hand wave" HOW it knows where it is on an unmapped planet?

I think you'll have to describe exactly how the suitcase ended up in its current location, and what vehicles/ships were used to get it there.

 

[HSlam]

Can you elaborate on properly described vehicles? What, in their proper description, doesn't "hand wave" HOW it knows where it is on an unmapped planet?

I think you'll have to describe exactly how the suitcase ended up in its current location, and what vehicles/ships were used to get it there.

Actually they got to the surface in a scout, they got to that particular island on a raft. They got off the island by swimming to a boat just off shore and they got off planet on a free trader.

All of that is totally inconsequential. The question is how does one set a reference for land navigation where no previous reference exists?

If you want to wave your hand and say that your ship established 0 longitude as it approached orbit before landing then fine. If you and the players are okay with that there's no problem.

But, if at some point the players want to know how their ship determined where 0 longitude is, then I'd like to have a methodology. In this particular case, if a ship does automatically make a zero reference every time it approaches an uncharted world then it raises a couple of other questions like does it keep the reference forever? Does it create a new zero point every time it approaches that planet? Would the players at some point be prompted by the ship's computer whether or not to save or even accept the zero point the ship made?

 

[fusor]

If you want to wave your hand and say that your ship established 0 longitude as it approached orbit before landing then fine. If you and the players are okay with that there's no problem.

That's not "waving your hand", that's exactly how it's done. Did you not read the NASA link I posted earlier (on page 2: http://vgrmag.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary.html )? That's how they established a zero longitude for Voyager at Uranus and Neptune. They said "the point underneath Voyager at this specific time is X longitude" and worked from there. Or they can pick a surface feature while on approach and say "that's zero longitude". So your question has been answered, but you're rejecting the solution.

But, if at some point the players want to know how their ship determined where 0 longitude is, then I'd like to have a methodology. In this particular case, if a ship does automatically make a zero reference every time it approaches an uncharted world then it raises a couple of other questions like does it keep the reference forever? Does it create a new zero point every time it approaches that planet? Would the players at some point be prompted by the ship's computer whether or not to save or even accept the zero point the ship made?

Sure, it can keep the reference forever. Or at least until someone else comes up with a better idea (e.g. the planet is colonised and a new zero longitude is created, at which point the ship's data can just be updated with the new one and conversions made for previous measurements).

 

[HSlam]

Yep, I did read the description of how voyager did it. I also read the shared NASA data that includes references to possible better options in the future. NASA scientists question the capability of repeating the zero line due to timing differences. The part about picking a surface feature is significantly more reliable assuming the features don't change due to volcanic activity, erosion, weather effects, etc. Or if the planet in question is featureless. Additionally, NASA admits that the way voyager did it wouldn't agree with the long distance methods used by astronomers to "establish" 'east' and 'west' across interstellar distances.

So, yes, if thats your method as a referee, thanks for the input and I appreciate it. Personally, I think a gravitometric approach is more likely at higher tech levels - but heck your guess is as good as mine. I was hoping to hear a few theories and I have. I really do appreciate all the input.

Honestly, I think that a lot of land navigation tends to get glossed over when science fiction tries to explain interstellar navigation. Reference points in general are totally screwed up. Maybe by a certain tech level we'll have some kind of sensor that can pin point the exact center of a planet sized object. That would make a useful reference point.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

"Yes, hand-waving is clearly what got them into this mess. If the vehicles were properly described, it would be clear that the players have everything they need to go back to where they were, just like you could with the GPS in your car. Realism, yo."

Can you elaborate on properly described vehicles? What, in their proper description, doesn't "hand wave" HOW it knows where it is on an unmapped planet?

That is exactly my point; the book description is a complete hand-wave of how vehicles navigate. If it wasn’t, you wouldn’t be in this mess. Properly described vehicles wouldn’t have this problem.

GPS isn't a very apt analogy here. I could take most GPS units sold in the USA and they wouldn't be able to tell me where I was at if I was standing in Switzerland. The GPS unit would know where it was - it would still be receiving a signal from whatever satellites it could gain, it wouldn't be able to tell me squat because it doesn't have a European map loaded in memory.

GPS is just about the only analogy here; but you’re evaluating them from the perspective of a civilian car driver, and not from the perspective of wilderness survival gear, or military grade GPS units. Those models are way more expensive, and aren’t limited in the same way. Regardless, even coordinates without a map is enough to solve your problem, which a civilian unit used outside of its expected territory would still be able to give you, with the right interface.

IMO there's a difference between "level of abstraction" and "hand waving." If you're hand waving you have no details at all at the underlying workings of whats going on - and that's not to say that's an inherently bad thing. It's just that neither you nor your players will ever be able to elaborate on whatever it is that's been waved. There's nothing wrong with that.

I’m not saying there is, except when it comes to the books we use as reference. If those books don’t support additional detail, then they need to be corrected.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Honestly, I think that a lot of land navigation tends to get glossed over when science fiction tries to explain interstellar navigation. Reference points in general are totally screwed up. Maybe by a certain tech level we'll have some kind of sensor that can pin point the exact center of a planet sized object. That would make a useful reference point.

Actually, no, no it wouldn’t. Triangulating from the center of a planet is just about useless; it’s the value that changes the least from one place to another. You’re better off triangulating from surface features.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Actually they got to the surface in a scout, they got to that particular island on a raft. They got off the island by swimming to a boat just off shore and they got off planet on a free trader.

All of that is totally inconsequential. The question is how does one set a reference for land navigation where no previous reference exists?

If you want to wave your hand and say that your ship established 0 longitude as it approached orbit before landing then fine. If you and the players are okay with that there's no problem.

But, if at some point the players want to know how their ship determined where 0 longitude is, then I'd like to have a methodology. In this particular case, if a ship does automatically make a zero reference every time it approaches an uncharted world then it raises a couple of other questions like does it keep the reference forever? Does it create a new zero point every time it approaches that planet? Would the players at some point be prompted by the ship's computer whether or not to save or even accept the zero point the ship made?

1. Do they still have the Scout?
2. Do they still have the Air-Raft?
3. Do they still have the Boat?
4. Do they still have the Far Trader?
5. Can they locate any of these?
6. Do they have the data from any of these?

How ships determine initial longitude, and change the recommended initial longitude based on better data, is predominantly a cultural thing... but, you should assume that the various sensor suites involved are going to gravitate toward picking the most useful things... which means the unchanging things that stick out according to the ship’s sensors the most. Please see my previous posts on that; you’d be hard-pressed to pick better references than those I’ve already suggested (though there might be some).

 

[Reynard]

"The question is how does one set a reference for land navigation where no previous reference exists?"

Practice, practice, practice. Space astrogation and planetary survey is, in fact, a science especially for scouts. The longitudinal line is not a universal absolute and is very arbitrary. He who gets there first plants the flag. Scouts might have a Standard Operating Procedure for establishing the first coordinates or it's what looks best, a significant land feature obvious enough not to be forgotten or it was the base camp when planetary surveys were done. A trader may have landed and made their landing site the most obvious zero longitude. Earth's longitude is arbitrary based on a location established in Britain for their own use for maritime purposes and later accepted by other countries. There was no science involved as was the original determination of the metric 'meter' unit. If the US had come to the plate first making an established astronomical facility, say at Harvard University, then GMT could have been HMT.

It seems more than logical the zero meridian would be the island where the case was hidden. Latitude would be based on the poles. Even the trader's sensors and astrogation/navigation software plus the ship's astrogator could establish 'first' coordinates for the party. All they have to say the location is for sentimental reasons. They get a copy in case they ever return.

 

[phavoc]

In the Army we had our own onboard gyroscope to tell us where we where. That would be easy enough to duplicate and compare to features on a rough map created through some orbital passes.

You could also drop off a tiny satellite on the way down to provide orbital mapping assistance (a few more and you could create your own GPS satellite network). A map box (from old Mercenary) to track your movements and a small drone that you launch to periodically check large landmarks mapped from orbit.

You could also drop radio transmitters on pre-known coordinates and use a simple receiver to triangulatell your position.

All of this assumes a well equipped ship with the credits to properly do it all. Adventurers on a shoestring budget might have to rely on luck and the mark 1 eyeball.