Land Navigation
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
And who is the Kaiser, so they say?
fusor said:
LOL, I found myself asking the same question while they were doing it. It's a really long story actually and some of the most interesting parts involve one of the players trying to accurately portray a traveller with an intelligence of 4 and an education of 2. Well "accurately" by her standards anyway.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
The worst thing about RPGs are the Intelligence and Education stats... sure, they’re fine if you’re trying to play a smarter character, but if you have to play a dumber character, you have to choose to play stupid; you’re consistently facing the temptation to use your real-world creativity, intelligence, and education, which, would arguably make for a much more interesting game, but you’re obligated to sit there and shut up, and desperately hope someone else figures out your clever plan which solves everything... which they never will.
The only benefit to playing a stupid character “properly” is if the GM gives you some kind of benefit for good roleplaying... which is harder to do in an XP-less game like Traveller.
The only benefit to playing a stupid character “properly” is if the GM gives you some kind of benefit for good roleplaying... which is harder to do in an XP-less game like Traveller.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I've gone over min max characters in that other forum; the problem with systems where the average is seven, or ten point five, is that anything below that is increasingly much less than average, compared to one where average or slightly dull is two points, and one point is functional.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
My point was less about min-maxing, and more about, “Is pretending to be stupid really good roleplaying? Does it meaningfully contribute to the storytelling? Is it worth it to the rest of the table to pretend to be stupid?”. In what way is “playing stupid” good as a game mechanic, such that it contributes to the game instead of merely detracting from it? I’m not really convinced having an intelligence stat to make low or high is anything but a nuisance, really.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Who wants to speculate the relationship between the player's intelligence and education, and the character's relevant attributes?
In theory, there's stuff we as players don't understand, like Magic Theory, and stuff barbarian characters shouldn't either, like physics, chemistry and biology, except possibly cause and effect, after a nine month interval.
In practice, dungeon masters shouldn't need to remind players constantly that their characters couldn't know that, and are acting in a particularly uncharacteristic way in discussing Freud, unless in character generation process these areas of study were specified and paid for.
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
I agree completely, but that doesn’t really address my point...
Does following that rule actually make the game better, or is it just a nuisance the players and the GM merely have to put up with? Wouldn’t it be better for players and GMs to assume that their characters are just as intelligent and educated as their players are, but with additional skills, as per the character sheet? Do players really assume that another player at the table is so intelligent that their character should be dumbed down, for the sake of gameplay balance?
Also... Bruce Banner is a Gamma Radiation Physicist... he’s neither stupid nor uneducated... just very impetuous...
Does following that rule actually make the game better, or is it just a nuisance the players and the GM merely have to put up with? Wouldn’t it be better for players and GMs to assume that their characters are just as intelligent and educated as their players are, but with additional skills, as per the character sheet? Do players really assume that another player at the table is so intelligent that their character should be dumbed down, for the sake of gameplay balance?
Also... Bruce Banner is a Gamma Radiation Physicist... he’s neither stupid nor uneducated... just very impetuous...
alex_greene
Guest
What have we learned so far about how low TL civilisations used to navigate by land when maps were unavailable?
Tenacious-Techhunter
Mongoose
How low TL cultures handle Land Navigation is just as off-topic from the original post, in spite of not being off topic from the mere title. But, for the sake of expanding upon the title...
Navigation by a planet’s stars requires training, and without a preexisting cultural tradition of specific constellations on that planet to work from, it’s even harder. Additionally, most planets wouldn’t have a star conveniently lined up at the North or South Pole; it would usually be more like navigating around the Southern Hemisphere, which doesn’t have a star lined up there. So, not only would they likely be at severe penalty to pick up a trained skill specific to just one planet, it would have taken time they didn’t spend.
If the planet has a magnetic field, compasses can be helpful, but they’re much more useful in conjunction with a map. That pretty much leaves us almost entirely with maps... which they didn’t do.
There are actually lots of interesting examples of primitive maps... here are some to consider:
Marshall Islands Stick Charts
Ammassalik Carved Wood Maps
Strip Maps
The last thing a GM can rely on to speed things along is what GURPS calls “Area Knowledge”; which is some basic experience of having been somewhere before, recognizing what you can sense from your memories of that place, recognizing landmarks, and so on. In Traveller, this should work as a bonus to Orienteering rolls, because you’ll recognize landmarks, and stay on track more often.
Navigation by a planet’s stars requires training, and without a preexisting cultural tradition of specific constellations on that planet to work from, it’s even harder. Additionally, most planets wouldn’t have a star conveniently lined up at the North or South Pole; it would usually be more like navigating around the Southern Hemisphere, which doesn’t have a star lined up there. So, not only would they likely be at severe penalty to pick up a trained skill specific to just one planet, it would have taken time they didn’t spend.
If the planet has a magnetic field, compasses can be helpful, but they’re much more useful in conjunction with a map. That pretty much leaves us almost entirely with maps... which they didn’t do.
There are actually lots of interesting examples of primitive maps... here are some to consider:
Marshall Islands Stick Charts
Ammassalik Carved Wood Maps
Strip Maps
The last thing a GM can rely on to speed things along is what GURPS calls “Area Knowledge”; which is some basic experience of having been somewhere before, recognizing what you can sense from your memories of that place, recognizing landmarks, and so on. In Traveller, this should work as a bonus to Orienteering rolls, because you’ll recognize landmarks, and stay on track more often.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Back to the original question: " The players left a briefcase on a very small island (about four total acres) on a planet full of nothing but between 15 - 16 thousand very small islands. The planet is outside Imperial Space, no maps in their database, how do they go back and find that one specific island?"
That says they in fact are Travellers with a starship. Once the case is hidden on one of thousands of islands they use the ship's sensor systems to image the island centered around other islands. The islands act like stars with distinctive sizes and shapes and, importantly, they form a pattern as you rise high above them. Save the image with the island overtly or subtly marked. When they return, they take the altitude they maintained while mapping before and look for the same pattern of islands, In the center X marks the spot.
That says they in fact are Travellers with a starship. Once the case is hidden on one of thousands of islands they use the ship's sensor systems to image the island centered around other islands. The islands act like stars with distinctive sizes and shapes and, importantly, they form a pattern as you rise high above them. Save the image with the island overtly or subtly marked. When they return, they take the altitude they maintained while mapping before and look for the same pattern of islands, In the center X marks the spot.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Presumably, the planet spins, so it has an axis; give the distance from one of those two points.
The planet should also have a high point; give the distance and the degree, and where those two points touch, you have your location.
The planet should also have a high point; give the distance and the degree, and where those two points touch, you have your location.
fusor said:
No they sure hadn't, but taking a picture of the spot would have been a lot more straight forward than designating some sort of zero longitude or rotational plane zero reference, marking it somehow (or doing even one full orbit map of the surface) and then using the data to get back to the spot.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Global warming.
