Jump torps - why not?

[EDG]

I know this has been the subject of many a flame war, but having just read up what is said in the Leviathan CT adventure myself, I really don't get what is so bad about Jump torpedoes (i.e. missiles with a jump engine, used for sending messages).

OK, they violate the "no jump drives for ships under 100dt" and "no unmanned ships without jump drives" rules... but from the reaction the topic gets anyone would think that totally destroys the OTU. But I can't really see how.

For starters, they still take a week to get to the destination system, and then all they do is broadcast a message. The people sending the torp have no idea if it got to its destination, or if it misjumped, or if anyone heard its message or responded, and even if they did it'd be a minimum of two weeks before any reply was forthcoming.

And you can't really use a J-torp for much else. Its potential offensive capabilities would be somewhat limited (if it was a proper explosive device, then it'd have to get to an entirely different system, and then have enough brains to find its target and then enough fuel to attack or collide it... and bear in mind it'd enter the target system at the 100D limit of a body too so it may have a lot of travelling before it got anywhere).

Sure, it means you can fit jump engines to Small Craft, but again we're probably talking about J1 at most and there wouldn't be much room for anything else (small craft are pretty cramped as it is, even without a jump engine). And maybe smaller jump drives would be prohibitively expensive too.

At worst I think all this would do is make the X-boat network unmanned (much to the relief of their sole crewmembers), but is that a real OTU-breaker?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just can't see why allowing J-Torps to exist (and Small Craft to use J-drives) would really change much. And J-torps would at least allow a misjumped ship to send a message out (assuming they could survive the two week wait for a reply) rather than just saying "you're screwed" to the crew.

 

[rust]

As mentioned elsewhere, I do use hyperspace message drones in my
non-OTU setting.

Most young colonies buy at least one of them as a means to call for help
when no starship is in the system, and sell the remaining drone(s) to an-
other new colony once starships are available on a regular basis.

Message drones are also (rarely) used to transport small cargoes like
vital and small spareparts, vaccines and thelike, but this is only done in
true emergency situations, because these drones are extremely expen-
sive (think Megacredits - many of them).

The drones are an excellent adventure hook. Two examples I used we-
re a call for help from a colony assessment team that was picked up by
pirates when the drone radioed the first ship in sensor range, which un-
fortunately was a corsair, and a misjumped message drone that had to
be found because it contained information on which side of a regional
conflict had attacked a neutral colony.

 

[spinwardpirate]

Domino effect. Once you allow drone message torps, why not drone cargo ships, or drone anything...

 

[Twi'lekk_Den-keeper]

This...is...PERFECT! :shock:
no, honestly, has anyone thought of the SUPER weapon capabilities of this? a 5000dton immobile orbiting ship built to launch 1000dton "drone" missiles that zero in on their target (a planet) with a j-drive, come out of warp space with the momentum given to them from the launch ship, smash into the crust of the target, aaaaaand... KA-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Galaxy gun!!! my own death star

 

[EDG]

Domino effect. Once you allow drone message torps, why not drone cargo ships, or drone anything...

Well... why not allow them?

We have unmanned spacecraft today, do they somehow preclude manned ones? I don't think so.

 

[EDG]

Galaxy gun!!! my own death star

Hey, let's leave the whole "near-C rock" thing (jump capable or not!) for another flamewar

 

[thepugilist]

They aren't there probably for the same reason that FTL communication does not exist : it would detract from the "high seas in space" feel.

Nothing wrong with it either way, for your campaign though. Reminds me of "Node Missiles" from Sword of the Stars (a nifty little 4X strategy game).

 

[rust]

Galaxy gun!!! my own death star

Yep, this happened in my campaign with an experimental hyperspace
drone captured by terrorists who decided to kill all the foreign dignita-
ries present at my colony's Hundred Years celebration.

Two characters died when they intercepted the drone with their patrol
shuttle, and the dignitaries mistook the explosion of the fusion bomb
and the shuttle for jubilee fireworks ...

Why not use such plots when they fit into the setting ?

But EDG is probably right, this is somewhat off topic ...

 

[hdrider67]

At worst I think all this would do is make the X-boat network unmanned (much to the relief of their sole crewmembers), but is that a real OTU-breaker?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just can't see why allowing J-Torps to exist (and Small Craft to use J-drives) would really change much.

Union rules, man. Don't mess with the teamsters, evar.

 

[spinwardpirate]

At worst I think all this would do is make the X-boat network unmanned (much to the relief of their sole crewmembers), but is that a real OTU-breaker?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just can't see why allowing J-Torps to exist (and Small Craft to use J-drives) would really change much.

Union rules, man. Don't mess with the teamsters, evar.

Exactly!
Especially the Vilani teamsters!

 

[spinwardpirate]

Domino effect. Once you allow drone message torps, why not drone cargo ships, or drone anything...

Well... why not allow them?

We have unmanned spacecraft today, do they somehow preclude manned ones? I don't think so.

If it makes for a good game why not preclude them?
To me, it doesn't really matter so much. If you want to do it in your universe, that's cool. But I'm just as happy with someone coming up with bizarre sociological/economical or pseudo-scientific reasons why they don't work.

 

[far-trader]

Star Trek personnel traveling via Photon Torpedo.

If you think it was cool then you'll like the idea. If you think it was one of the stupidest things ever then you'll hate the idea.

Nuff said.

 

[far-trader]

On the plus side it may just make "fighters" viable again.

No more pointless carriers wasting all that volume to transport impotent fighters and their crew to a battle. Just build small automated (robotic) jump capable fighters and launch them at your enemy in the hundreds of thousands.

 

[EDG]

Star Trek personnel traveling via Photon Torpedo.

If you think it was cool then you'll like the idea. If you think it was one of the stupidest things ever then you'll hate the idea.

Nuff said.

Maybe one could fit a low berth into the torp and use it as a really small escape pod, or a sneaky way to get someone into another system. I don't see anything particularly "stupid" about that though.

Neither does it necessarily mean that all fighters or even all jump capable ships should be robotic. AI in the OTU is pretty non-existent so you're not going to get Transhuman Space-style AKVs (Autonomous Kill Vehicles) or Culture-like Drones. In the OTU, humans (or sentient beings anyway) will always do a better job than AI.

At worst I think it means that you may have things like the Raptors from BSG - ie small craft that are jump capable. But since it's Jump we're talking about, everything is still going to be in jumpspace for a week, and so it does absolutely nothing to change the "age of sail" approach.

 

[rust]

But since it's Jump we're talking about, everything is still going to be in jumpspace for a week, and so it does absolutely nothing to change the "age of sail" approach.

Besides, being in a really small craft for an entire week in jump would
definitely be an experience most pilots would be willing to forego.

 

[Supergamera]

Star Trek personnel traveling via Photon Torpedo.

Did they do that?

Allowing robotic jumps starts to impact the whole idea of "travelling", as people stay at home and let their machines trade, explore and fight for them. There are certainly sci-fi settings like this, but Traveller isn't one of them.

Personally, I prefer to go with a variation of the concept Niven used in the "Known Space" stories - FTL travel (jumping, in the case) require use of a mildly psionic device, and machines can't recognize the output to navigate with. It also ties with psionics in the setting, as the understanding of Jump navigation leads to an improved understanding of psionic powers.

Back on subject, requiring a living navigator can still allow for J-Torps in a setting; a navigator on ship determines a course, and the torp takes a 1-way trip. This way, you get your drones without allowing for autonomous robotic travel.

Out of curiosity, people tend to bring up the J-Torps in Leviathan; is the ship in Annic Nova (with its share of canon-distorting quirks) just generally dismissed?

What we really need are pirates firing near-C J-Torps out of an empty hex. :twisted:

 

[far-trader]

...being in a really small craft for an entire week in jump would
definitely be an experience most pilots would be willing to forego.

Nah, no hardship at all, just pop some Fast drug, kick back to enjoy the movie (shown 60 times slower) or catch a nap. And when it's over (less than 3 hours subjective time) so is your jump and the system pops a Fast drug antidote in you and you're ready.

 

[rust]

Nah, no hardship at all, just pop some Fast drug ...

Ah, I always forget about those drugs. They are among those elements
of the OTU which, like psionics, meson guns and groatl, never made it
into my setting ... 8)

 

[Border Reiver]

I remember all the years of argument over Jump Torps and I'm happy for them to exist in OTU based on a few caveats. that I've seen over the years to explain them.

1. They get round the 100 ton restriction by deploying an "inflatable" 100 ton jump grid. This could be used by sub-100 ton spacecraft.

2. This is new Imperial tech, late TL-15 or even early TL-16, they are rare and/or unreliable.

 

[captainjack23]

But since it's Jump we're talking about, everything is still going to be in jumpspace for a week, and so it does absolutely nothing to change the "age of sail" approach.

Besides, being in a really small craft for an entire week in jump would
definitely be an experience most pilots would be willing to forego.

well, as for communication, there is a big change: while the packets travel at the same latency , the number of packets increases tremendously. Makes life much easier, and thus, less fun for adventurers.