Jack of all Trades?...

[rust]

It's rather tangential to the issue of why the mechanic's not actually broken, though, which is what I said. :¬)

Yep, but I never claimed that it is broken (I really do not know whether it
is), just that it does not fit in with my setting and campaign. :wink:

 

[Gaidheal]

Fair point. :¬)

 

[alex_greene]

No. You don't.

Yes you do,

In terms of game machanic, if you have JoAT's 3 you have for the purpose of the system the equivalent of ALL skill not already at zero or higher, AT ZERO

You really don't. The J-o-T writeup does not say "Mark every skill on your char sheet with a zero, including writing in ones you've never heard of which will turn up in all the supplements we're going to release."

It just says that it reduces, and at J-o-T-3 eliminates, the untrained penalty for being unskilled.

Your character is still unskilled. She just doesn't show it because she's really good with sleight of hand to make it look like she's actually got skill-0.

 

[Gaidheal]

"Jack-of-all-trades" is for bright (or somehow intuitively talented) generalists - I, in real life, can wing quite a bit of Biology, for example, based on common sense, general scientific principles, my real knowledge of Chemistry and Physics, hanging around Biologists and the little Biology that I did way back at secondary school level before I took my 'A' levels and went to Uni. This doesn't make me qualified to operate on you, perform a detailed study of the effects of a chemical on fish populations in rivers or talk authoritatively about immunology (picking three random things out there!) but it does mean I can pretty safely pick "Science" on quiz machines and not be worried by any of the questions, flick through Biology textbook and understand almost immediately any of the topics, to at least a basic level and realize that viruses are much, much, smaller than bacteria and will not respond to antibiotics.

 

[Ishmael]

It seems to me that J-o-T represents quick and flexible thinking.
Trying something based on sketchy knowledge and switching to something else if its not working, but before it fails.
So maybe instead of trying to shoe-horn it as a skill DM, why not say it gives more attempts to beat the task number.

a J-o-T of 2 gives 2 extra attempts ( complete with bad dm's for unskilled )
if another DM relies on the amount the task roll was beaten by, divide any eventual success by the number of attempts made.
if the task roll was beat by 2 on the second roll, then the end result for beating the task number is 1 ( 2/2)

Or maybe make an attempt and then decide to not go further and walk away without following through on the task attempt after all.

J-oT helps but given unskilled DM's, a skill level-0 is still better.

( actually, I don't feel "skill levels" are a measure of competency in a field. I think they are a measure of hands-on experience in that field instead. Practice gives hands-on experience which allows "skill levels" to go up.... book learning does so only very very slowly... and with no experience, then 'unskilled' .... but that's my opinion anyways )

just an idea

 

[Gaidheal]

"Hands on" experience is valuable and in game terms it separates zero-level from level one and above, however, without the 'book learning' to back it up you're basically a 'bodger', really and I've seen it rather a lot in real life. A bodger is not the bloke you want heading up an important project in that field but he might do, in a pinch, for an immediate result.

In game terms, he has the 'j-o-a-t' skill and is applying it in that skill area. ;¬)

 

[Ishmael]

I both agree and disagree

Book learning and hands-on both combine for competency. Some fields lean more to one side than another I suppose. I think hands-on is what separates unskilled from skill-0 and above.

I can read dozens of books on how to write software ( book learning ) but until I actually do write some code, I won't know how to do it in practice...only in theory.
I can read kung-fu books until I'm blind, but until I DO it with practice, I'll be unskilled.

on the other hand, hands-on can only get you so far.
Without book learning my coding may not have well developed techniques learned from the experiences of others and my kung-fu may just be flailing of arms/legs that just happens to work mostly.

of course, just for information, I use a form of MT's task system with the stat DM being (stat/3)-1, so things can get done with book-learning only ( unskilled with stat DM ), things go much better if there is some hands-on ( to get skill-0 at least ) even if there is no book-learning ( lower than average stat )

but yeah... a bodger is just a bodger... he can lead an important project, though...if he has tons of hands-on experience. But thats my experience in real life.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The limit is precisely what you just outlined, zero-level, next remember that players can only attempt skill-rolls that you call for and permit.

Its ZERO in EVERYTHING, now do you see a lack of limit?

Oaty_bars may personally believe that JoT is too powerful of a skill and there is nothing wrong with having this opinion, but Gaidheal is correct that there is a limit. The rules limit JoT to reducing the unskilled penalty. Levels of JoT beyond 3 do not increase the DM further by allowing positive DMs. The limit is similar to a zero level in whatever skill JoT is being applied to. The limit is that JoT will never be as good as level 1 or higher in a particular skill.

Someone with JoT 3 and no other skills would probably have a hard time getting hired on a ship. My character would not trust them to Pilot, plot a course, prepare for jump...

If used as written, a JoT skill of level 3 indeed provides the character with level 0 in all skills

In terms of game machanic, if you have JoAT's 3 you have for the purpose of the system the equivalent of ALL skill not already at zero or higher, AT ZERO

These preceding two quotes are not totally accurate.

It reduces the unskilled penalty a character receives for not having the appropriate skill

This is not the same as having the skill, even when JoT is level 3.

Some actions will require the character to have a particular skill, but will still not require a roll. A character with Flyer 0 can fly an air/raft under normal conditions without having to make a roll.

Example: Player A has Flyer 0 and Player B is an unskilled Flyer but has JoT 3.

My interpretation: Player A does not have to make a skill roll to fly an air/raft under normal conditions, but Player B does, and will fail over 50% of the time (with average characteristics). Now if a GM wants to make the JoT player really work for it, he could have them roll for starting the vehicle, getting it to lift off the ground, turning, braking, and so on. And you could require these rolls each and every time. Succeeding once does not suddenly give Player B Flyer 0 skill. This is just one example of how a GM can play a role in using the skill as written and keep it in check, if they feel the need to do so.

The book does not describe what JoT is, only that it reduces the unskilled penalty.

Perhaps if JoT is looked at as common sense, ability to think under pressure, intuition, imagination, being observant, and/or thinking outside the box

A character without a skill, and without the ability to do these things (no JoT skill) gets a -3 unskilled penalty. Someone with a little more skill (JoT 1) in innovative thinking, and applying concepts gets the unskilled modifier reduced to -2. To me, this seams plausible. Someone with JoT 3 is a person (someone said MacGuiver) who is extremely skilled in this ability.

Conclusion
There is nothing wrong with creating your own house rules to enhance your enjoyment of the game. There is also nothing wrong with using the rules as written, acknowledging that they can be interpreted and applied differently by different people.

 

[alex_greene]

Conclusion
There is nothing wrong with creating your own house rules to enhance your enjoyment of the game. There is also nothing wrong with using the rules as written, acknowledging that they can be interpreted and applied differently by different people.

D'you know, this should be written as the last post of every thread that has run its natural course. Let it serve as a warning to thread necromancers: Don't wake up this beast again.