alex_greene
Guest
It didn't work for me when I tried to argue my way out of paying that fixed penalty parking fine ...
Jack of all Trades?...
- Thread starter Oaty_bars
- Start date
Is JoAT as written really that much of a problem?
From my perspective, it's better written than many previous editions of Traveller.
Sure, I could see a player attempting to abuse it, but IMO, those cases should be handled by the GM just like they would handle any other skill or ability being abused.
FREX, even if a PC has a JoAT of 3, he still isn't going to be able to a job as an engineer, pilot or lawyer very easily - and if he/she does, it's going to be harder to keep it. If the PC decides to use their JoAT to defend themselves in court, they still face an uphill battle - because it's likely the prosecutor is just as smart, but has a level 3 or 4, plus a team of assistants to chain the task to.
Rely on that skill too often in my campaigns, and it will only end up failing you - you need true skills.
From my perspective, it's better written than many previous editions of Traveller.
Sure, I could see a player attempting to abuse it, but IMO, those cases should be handled by the GM just like they would handle any other skill or ability being abused.
FREX, even if a PC has a JoAT of 3, he still isn't going to be able to a job as an engineer, pilot or lawyer very easily - and if he/she does, it's going to be harder to keep it. If the PC decides to use their JoAT to defend themselves in court, they still face an uphill battle - because it's likely the prosecutor is just as smart, but has a level 3 or 4, plus a team of assistants to chain the task to.
Rely on that skill too often in my campaigns, and it will only end up failing you - you need true skills.
I did talk my way out of paying fixed penalty fines, at the Crown Court (although it wasn't a real Crown Court session, of course, we just have the Crown Court in our town ;¬) ).
I think Mongoose have done a decent job with it; if your worry is player abuse then you need to examine your Refereeing and perhaps stamp down on 'munchkin' syndrome in your players...
I think Mongoose have done a decent job with it; if your worry is player abuse then you need to examine your Refereeing and perhaps stamp down on 'munchkin' syndrome in your players...
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Talking or arguing your way out of a ticket. Hmmm.
I wonder which is the best techinque in any situation with an individual who weilds power. :lol:
I kind of like alex_greene's analogy.
To me that is a good example of a Character using Only JoT and not their intelligence. It will back fire.
JoT is the catch all handyman, I read about it, serious hobby kind of skill. It works to add flavor, get an individual out of (or into) a jam, and helps make up for the lack of 1000's of character skills on a player sheet.
If a player said that I will just my JoT to handle this I expect a mess of other things to happen.
If they use their JoT to add to what they are doing, things seem to go better.
Dave Chase
I wonder which is the best techinque in any situation with an individual who weilds power. :lol:
I kind of like alex_greene's analogy.
To me that is a good example of a Character using Only JoT and not their intelligence. It will back fire.
JoT is the catch all handyman, I read about it, serious hobby kind of skill. It works to add flavor, get an individual out of (or into) a jam, and helps make up for the lack of 1000's of character skills on a player sheet.
If a player said that I will just my JoT to handle this I expect a mess of other things to happen.
If they use their JoT to add to what they are doing, things seem to go better.
Dave Chase
JoAT's is powerful to the extent of allowing you to apply it to skills that would be outside a characters exp, its unlimited,
And not at all realistic, someone who you would describe as a JoAT would have a long list of skills, (not just one) and even with the many skills would not have them all,
And the JoAT skill differs in that a real JoAT could have qualifications.
Getting JoAT- 3 is in effect the same has having zero/0 in every skill
(and every new skill to be list in the game at a later date)
You don't think thats too powerful?
My solution was to base this on Terms served in a career, and open to everyone, limited in effect to the roll you make, and the skills you would have been exposed to during the years served,
This is alot more realistic,
And not at all realistic, someone who you would describe as a JoAT would have a long list of skills, (not just one) and even with the many skills would not have them all,
And the JoAT skill differs in that a real JoAT could have qualifications.
Getting JoAT- 3 is in effect the same has having zero/0 in every skill
(and every new skill to be list in the game at a later date)
You don't think thats too powerful?
My solution was to base this on Terms served in a career, and open to everyone, limited in effect to the roll you make, and the skills you would have been exposed to during the years served,
This is alot more realistic,
I also still consider JoT a problem.
Just imagine a colonist from my water world setting. The poor guy has
to live with a low intelligence and an only mediocre education, but with
a bit of luck he managed to get JoT level 3.
And although he never left his homeworld and never travelled on any
starship, this gives him a basic knowledge of astrogation. Well, this ís
a somewhat unusual hobby for an aquafarmer, but I would still consi-
der the character as somewhat believable.
But wait, the same guy with low intelligence and mediocre education
also knows the basics of cybernetics, linguistics and sophontology -
and now my suspension of disbelief breaks down.
For me, JoT without a connection to intelligence and education just is
not plausible, and if I use intelligence and education as the base to
determine what knowledge a character may have outside of his skills,
I do no longer see a need for JoT.
Just imagine a colonist from my water world setting. The poor guy has
to live with a low intelligence and an only mediocre education, but with
a bit of luck he managed to get JoT level 3.
And although he never left his homeworld and never travelled on any
starship, this gives him a basic knowledge of astrogation. Well, this ís
a somewhat unusual hobby for an aquafarmer, but I would still consi-
der the character as somewhat believable.
But wait, the same guy with low intelligence and mediocre education
also knows the basics of cybernetics, linguistics and sophontology -
and now my suspension of disbelief breaks down.
For me, JoT without a connection to intelligence and education just is
not plausible, and if I use intelligence and education as the base to
determine what knowledge a character may have outside of his skills,
I do no longer see a need for JoT.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
A thought I just had and have not contemplated the feasibility yet, but I'll throw it out there:
When you gain JoT you select a limited number of skills, based on your characteristics, that you now have a basic understanding of.
When you gain JoT you select a limited number of skills, based on your characteristics, that you now have a basic understanding of.
It sounds good, but it seems to still leave the problem that a characterCosmicGamer said:
with low intelligence and low education plus JoT can have a better gene-
ral knowledge base than a character with high intelligence and high edu-
cation but no JoT.
In my view, JoT made sense with the limited number and scope of the
skills of Classic Traveller, but becomes a problem - at least for me -
with the higher number of skills, and especially the science skills, of
Mongoose Traveller.
While I am willing to test other ideas, I will most probably stay with our
current system: JoT allows the player to choose any one other skill for
his character during character generation, but JoT itself will not become
a part of our campaign.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
JoT (or JoAT) is just a skill like anyother.
But how you play out JoT is very important in my mind.
Jot should be a roleplaying skill in the fact that a player must describe how they are applying it to the situation.
If they say, I am using my JoT to help me out. OK, they get some little tiny add or advantage to the action. Maybe a hint if they succeed on a roll.
If they say, I am using my JoT to help me figure out how to repair this control panel. I know I don't have Electronics but my character does read trade magazines and I have watched some engineers do repair work before. They will get an advantage to attempt the repair.
It might be a juryrig or it might only hold for that moment (battle, Jump, one day) but it gives them something positive.
Also, I take in consideration, has that character actually done what the player claims when attempting to use that JoT skill to booster or act like a skill. If not then praise them for the attempt but don't give them much.
Now what does a high skill level of JoT mean. I see it as a highly skilled handyman or someone who has done a bit of every thing but never specailized in anything.
I will use the attorney/lawyer example of alex_greene's again.
JoT 1, can defend them selves in small claims court a bit better than someone who does not have any legal skill (Watched TV Law & Order a lot)
JoT 2, could possibly defend them selves OK in court, knows that they need to do some legal record research and have their facts right. Knows that they need to fill out lots of forms correctly BUT. They don't know how to access those legal records (old court cases) and they don't know all of the forms or all the correct legal terms. (Possibly seen or read a couple of actual court cases or TV shows. Might have had a friend who was a lawyer)
JoT 3, could defend them selves in court, they know how to access some older cases and where to find legal forms. They know how to find out the other attorney's court case standing (wins, losses, style). But, they are not recongized as an actual attorney and will not get many of the benefits of one (Think as a paralegal or college student in prelaw)
JoT 4, I would count as Lawyer/attorney skill level 0 IF the player can come up with a good roleplaying reason or 2 for it. Other wise I treat the attempt the same as JoT 3
JoT 5, Well, this is possible but pushing a bit for a true rolling background in Traveller.
And in all of the above cases, I would keep in mind the characters Intelligence, Education and background story. If those did not support the players choice in the use of the JoT skill they will not get as nice of an advantage.
An example of a JoT character attemtpting to defend them selves in court.
Int 5, Edu 7, no legal or Admin skills
JoT 2, Brawling 2, Gun Combat 1, Pilot 1, Vacc suit 1 and was a Scout
The player is attempting to help his group out of a jam over space port violations and get out of a huge fine. Everyone thinks its hopeless but no one can think of anything.
The player tells me that he is sure that he has been in trouble with the law before in barroom fights and possible some shootouts. He is a Pilot and knows that space ports need docking fees to stay in the positive and that fines can be variable in how they are applied. He says he intends to present their case as cowboys, miners just off the range coming into town after months of being way out in the middle of no where. They we just in a hurry to have a good time, and didn't mean any harm.
I liked the concept and when time came to go to court, the character was respectful to the judge all the time, told his friends to shut up once and apologize to the judge for being rude. Told the judge the story that he came up with (which wasn't to far from the truth) and then asked the Judge if there was any way they could make it up with out the heavy fine since they were broke. I gave the player a nice positive to the roll and they rolled very well to boot. The other side rolled average.
The Judge then decided to cut the fine in 1/2 and make note that if they came back and caused any other problems in the future, they would recieve double fines for the problems and told the 'characters' to report to X law enforcement to pay their fines. The individual who they reported to offered them a job after taking their fine money.
So, to me JoT is a side skill to assist in roleplaying. Not a given, automatic but something that could help out IF the player attempts to use well.
Dave Chase
But how you play out JoT is very important in my mind.
Jot should be a roleplaying skill in the fact that a player must describe how they are applying it to the situation.
If they say, I am using my JoT to help me out. OK, they get some little tiny add or advantage to the action. Maybe a hint if they succeed on a roll.
If they say, I am using my JoT to help me figure out how to repair this control panel. I know I don't have Electronics but my character does read trade magazines and I have watched some engineers do repair work before. They will get an advantage to attempt the repair.
It might be a juryrig or it might only hold for that moment (battle, Jump, one day) but it gives them something positive.
Also, I take in consideration, has that character actually done what the player claims when attempting to use that JoT skill to booster or act like a skill. If not then praise them for the attempt but don't give them much.
Now what does a high skill level of JoT mean. I see it as a highly skilled handyman or someone who has done a bit of every thing but never specailized in anything.
I will use the attorney/lawyer example of alex_greene's again.
JoT 1, can defend them selves in small claims court a bit better than someone who does not have any legal skill (Watched TV Law & Order a lot)
JoT 2, could possibly defend them selves OK in court, knows that they need to do some legal record research and have their facts right. Knows that they need to fill out lots of forms correctly BUT. They don't know how to access those legal records (old court cases) and they don't know all of the forms or all the correct legal terms. (Possibly seen or read a couple of actual court cases or TV shows. Might have had a friend who was a lawyer)
JoT 3, could defend them selves in court, they know how to access some older cases and where to find legal forms. They know how to find out the other attorney's court case standing (wins, losses, style). But, they are not recongized as an actual attorney and will not get many of the benefits of one (Think as a paralegal or college student in prelaw)
JoT 4, I would count as Lawyer/attorney skill level 0 IF the player can come up with a good roleplaying reason or 2 for it. Other wise I treat the attempt the same as JoT 3
JoT 5, Well, this is possible but pushing a bit for a true rolling background in Traveller.
And in all of the above cases, I would keep in mind the characters Intelligence, Education and background story. If those did not support the players choice in the use of the JoT skill they will not get as nice of an advantage.
An example of a JoT character attemtpting to defend them selves in court.
Int 5, Edu 7, no legal or Admin skills
JoT 2, Brawling 2, Gun Combat 1, Pilot 1, Vacc suit 1 and was a Scout
The player is attempting to help his group out of a jam over space port violations and get out of a huge fine. Everyone thinks its hopeless but no one can think of anything.
The player tells me that he is sure that he has been in trouble with the law before in barroom fights and possible some shootouts. He is a Pilot and knows that space ports need docking fees to stay in the positive and that fines can be variable in how they are applied. He says he intends to present their case as cowboys, miners just off the range coming into town after months of being way out in the middle of no where. They we just in a hurry to have a good time, and didn't mean any harm.
I liked the concept and when time came to go to court, the character was respectful to the judge all the time, told his friends to shut up once and apologize to the judge for being rude. Told the judge the story that he came up with (which wasn't to far from the truth) and then asked the Judge if there was any way they could make it up with out the heavy fine since they were broke. I gave the player a nice positive to the roll and they rolled very well to boot. The other side rolled average.
The Judge then decided to cut the fine in 1/2 and make note that if they came back and caused any other problems in the future, they would recieve double fines for the problems and told the 'characters' to report to X law enforcement to pay their fines. The individual who they reported to offered them a job after taking their fine money.
So, to me JoT is a side skill to assist in roleplaying. Not a given, automatic but something that could help out IF the player attempts to use well.
Dave Chase
alex_greene
Guest
Three other examples:
J-o-T replacing Medic skill: the character would be reciting "A B C. Airway, Breathing ... er, Circulation" when checking an unconscious patient to determine why they're out cold (some miscreant may have spiked their drink, for instance).
J-o-T replacing Deception: "Never let them see you sweat, and if they put their hands over their nose and mouth when speaking to you, they're lying. Oh, and cehck their eyes. If they look left, it's a memory. If they look right, it's a created image in their heads."
J-o-T replacing Gun Combat (FGMP-15): Don't. Please, don't.
J-o-T replacing Medic skill: the character would be reciting "A B C. Airway, Breathing ... er, Circulation" when checking an unconscious patient to determine why they're out cold (some miscreant may have spiked their drink, for instance).
J-o-T replacing Deception: "Never let them see you sweat, and if they put their hands over their nose and mouth when speaking to you, they're lying. Oh, and cehck their eyes. If they look left, it's a memory. If they look right, it's a created image in their heads."
J-o-T replacing Gun Combat (FGMP-15): Don't. Please, don't.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
???rust said:
Example:
Person A with low intelligence and low education plus JoT = 777447 with JoT skill level 2
Person B high intelligence and high education but no JoT = 777AA7 and no JoT
The higher characteristics give person B a +1 for characteristics making it a -2 DM total with the -3DM for unskilled. Person A has the same -2 skill roll after JoT makes the -3DM for unskilled a -1 but then the -1 for characteristics is added.
Do I have that right?
EDIT: This is with the MgT rules.
Perhaps if JoT is looked at as common sense, ability to think under pressure, intuition, imagination, being observant, and/or thinking outside the box, and not 'general knowledge'?
Dave Chase said:
JoAT's can't go above 3, and even then can't go in to a positive modifier, but only offset the negative modifier for not having the skill,
So that doesn't work..
And the fact is, as written in the book you don't need to explain yourself when choosing to us this skill, you can apply it to any skill,
And as a player if you had gotten this skill with the veiw of using as written then some GM short changed you, I don't think you would be pleased, the player can say this skill can be applied to anything and he would be right,
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Oaty_bars said:
That might very well be about not giving a positive. I was not referring to any one set of rules. Just explaining how I use JoT.
And you are right again that a player never has to explain them selves. But to me that ends up just being a game where the GM does everything and the player is along for the ride. Not fun in my mind for either side.
I apologize for not clarifying that I was just writting in general and just explaining my way of using JoT. Of course most of my background on Traveller comes from CT, so with MgT being so close, I forget sometimes the smaller differences.
Dave Chase
rust said:I use almost exactly the same method in our campaign - just without theDave Chase said:
JoT skill and based upon intelligence and education instead.
Yeah, but if you base it on the Terms served you have a listed group of skills this would relate too,
Just sayin, lol :wink:
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