Jack of all Trades 0

[Lemnoc]

As for JOT-0, that just makes no sense to me in the current system. JOT isn't even something that you can be trained in, it's just a measure of how well you can apply your intelligence and education to figure out things you've not been formally trained in before. And as described it's really kludgy because it doesn't work the same as other skills.

A problem (some might say a feature :wink: ) with Traveller is there is no strong, clear nexus between Attributes like INT and EDU and how they combine to form Skills. In another game system, you'd probably simulate JOAT through the combination of baseline Attributes, with other Attributes acting as modifiers.

You're right that Trav kludges this.

I've known JOAT types personally, they combine natural gifts with curiosity and an airy sort of wisdom. A friend is fantastic painter with a studio in his attic, has an ammo reloader in his garage, designs kayaks, does ballroom dancing as a hobby, and his library is something to behold. Traveller needs to be able to simulate this kind of nutball. They're exactly the kinds of people you'd expect to be roaming around space, causing mischief.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Just remember that Jack of all Trades also means Master of None. It's not a savant skill.

 

[Lemnoc]

Just remember that Jack of all Trades also means Master of None. It's not a savant skill.

The old Ringworld RPG glossed this as 'Dilettante.' It was a sort of essential descriptor for characters that had lived hundreds of years and dabbled in dozens of things.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Just remember that Jack of all Trades also means Master of None. It's not a savant skill.

The old Ringworld RPG glossed this as 'Dilettante.' It was a sort of essential descriptor for characters that had lived hundreds of years and dabbled in dozens of things.

That would have made me insane if I played it when it first came out. Because I would have no clue what "dilettante" meant. Did they use that word? Because I now use it as meaning "Paris Hilton" - style nobility.

Just looked it up. The Interwebs calls it the same thing.

 

[Lemnoc]

That would have made me insane if I played it when it first came out. Because I would have no clue what "dilettante" meant. Did they use that word? Because I now use it as meaning "Paris Hilton" - style nobility.

IIRC, the mechanic allowed you, in a points buy system, to buy any skill cheaper then normal, but then they were capped... reflecting your character's profligate ways. Paris Hilton is profligate... w/o the attending skills.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Instead of skill of 20, Ringworld dilettantes get 1 to 2 levels up to 5. I think I had that boxed game. Never played it though.

 

[locarno24]

-3 - completely untrained
0 - untrained but has a reasonable chance of figuring it out without training
1 - formally trained at beginner level

Exactly what a skill level represents is always a subject of debate but that's generally understating things compared to most people.

'untrained but figuring it out' is what JOaT is generally about. Level 0 represents more familiarity than that.

A level 0 skill is generally considered to be 'basic familiarity' or 'beginner level'.

To put things into perspective, a four year term generally yields 1 or 2 skills at level 1 (depending on events). So a scholar doing a university/(American) college degree would expect a level 1 skill in their relevant discipline. A graduate trainee would have level 1 in their primary job function, etc, etc.

"Experienced professional" or "further education" is level 2. Expert is 3 and "holy actual crud" is 4.

Level 0 - well, 'education' - i.e. your high school/(British) college education - will net you about three level 0 skills beyond just basic literacy/numeracy.

Army 'basic training' - a several months to a year of intensively "being-yelled-at" - will get you 6.

As a result, I'd humbly offer up a level 0 skill as not far off A-level, or one module of university education, or similar investiment of skill via experience (several years of a hobby without formal training, for example)


To use a much quoted example, for medic:

Untrained is untrained. Most people are this level.
Medic/0 represents a full, current First Aider certificate (Red Cross, Red Crescent, St. John's Ambulance or similar)
Medic/1 represents a nurse*, first aid leader*, junior house officer (just-qualified hospital doctor), or bio-medical graduate
Medic/2 represents an experienced senior house officer, GP/MD, etc.
Medic/3 is into consultant, 'proffessor-ship holding' lecturer/researcher or other expert
Medic/4 is the sort of reknown expert people will actively seek out for assistance. Much-published researchers, faculty heads, 'House'-esque consultants, etc.

* note: pure medical knowledge only. In "how much use are you in a crisis", this may be significantly better than a doctor.

 

[Lemnoc]

Instead of skill of 20, Ringworld dilettantes get 1 to 2 levels up to 5. I think I had that boxed game. Never played it though.

Er, wasn't a D20 system with levels (if I'm understanding you correctly). Was a Chaosium pre-BRP, built along CoC, Elric, Pendragon... but at the time of its release the only really first-class Hard SF alternative to Traveller. Had a subordinated Skills set (we were talking about that earlier on this thread) and a really first-rate Research resolution system (that generally acted as a scenario generator).

IIRC, it was a little klunky on how it handled skills above 100% (which was pretty common when you had 400 yo PCs) and if one of your PCs ever got his hands on a flashlight laser, look out: Armies down.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

A few things:

F33D, I thought you referring to allowing all characters JoT 0 was another way of saying that characters are allowed to make unskilled (-3) rolls in the first place. Other games like D20(in its various versions) have skills which may be allowed untrained (like non-proficient weapon attacks with a -4 penalty) and others which outright do not permit skill rolls at all if you have no skill ranks.

I think MgT skill level 0 is perfectly valid in description. It means base trained competancy without being exceptional. Translating to a real life experience, just saying, is Drive 0 for me. Back in Illinois high school days 1980's, I "thought" I knew how to drive a car. I saw my mom drive the car. Yea, right. Then we had Driver's Education, learned about Rules of the Road, speed limits, then finally convincing her to let me try in shopping mall parking lots on Sunday prior to opening. Almost knocked down some lighting poles until I learned to apply the physicality acceleration and maneuvering...Got my permit and finally at 18 a full license or at least Illinois thinks I am trained. :lol: So I have Drive 0. I look at Skill 0 as what an American high-school level trained person might know or be capable of. In general. Yes, I know the UK has a different education system and style, but as they say work with what you know.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Concerning Ringworld RPG:

The ruleset allowed you to gain skills far in excess of 100% which impacted the special success and special failure rules.

A flaslight laser opponent would take care of the problem. Or one with a Known Space digging tool, he he. Depends who goes first.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I look at Skill 0 as what an American high-school level trained person might know or be capable of.

Just wanted to point out that this would give more level 0 skills than the rules account for. Science, Drive, Computers, Art, Language ... Just to list a few.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Instead of skill of 20, Ringworld dilettantes get 1 to 2 levels up to 5. I think I had that boxed game. Never played it though.

Er, wasn't a D20 system with levels (if I'm understanding you correctly). Was a Chaosium pre-BRP, built along CoC, Elric, Pendragon... but at the time of its release the only really first-class Hard SF alternative to Traveller. Had a subordinated Skills set (we were talking about that earlier on this thread) and a really first-rate Research resolution system (that generally acted as a scenario generator).

IIRC, it was a little klunky on how it handled skills above 100% (which was pretty common when you had 400 yo PCs) and if one of your PCs ever got his hands on a flashlight laser, look out: Armies down.

"20" and "levels" always trigger the D20 mindset. This was 20 as in 20 points per skill level during CharGen.

 

[Myrm]

There are always two different rules for everything in this game. So ambiguous.
I tossed a coin, so Jack of all Trades will start at 1. And I don't think I've seen it at value 0 or in any of the background or basic training skills (which start at 0)?

I see nothing ambiguous in this instance, though...
JoaT can notionally have a level 0, it just does nothing - reason, its supposed to be a hard skill to invest in and develop - so there's not supposed to be an easy 'free entry' of getting the first level quickly.

So your vote is that Jack of all Trades should start at 0? Now what happens if you see Jack of all Trades on a skill chart, and your D6 lands on it? Every other skill your die has landed on you've been giving yourself a 1 for.

No that's nothing remotely like what I said - what I said is there is nothing anmbiguous about JoaT and boiled down to treat it like any other skill and if you happen to get JoaT-0 it effectively means nothing. Im thinking of present non-core careers that have Joat on their basic training schedule, or event results that let you take a skill of choice at 0. Really the most likely way that someone might try and get this (only way in the core rules from memory) is through the build process.
So my vote is - What level you get JoaT at is driven entirely by the prescribed dice rolls and routes by which you come to get it - if thats 1 it is 1 - if its anything else its what that result says.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I look at Skill 0 as what an American high-school level trained person might know or be capable of.

Just wanted to point out that this would give more level 0 skills than the rules account for. Science, Drive, Computers, Art, Language ... Just to list a few.

Well, when I went to high school beside state requirements you pretty much were allowed to take what you wanted.
The 1980's Illinois requirements were like: 4 Credit English, 2 Credits of Math, 1 Credit Science (or 1 Math, 2 Science) 1 Credit Foreign Language, 1 Credit PE/Gym (Even though it was every day, it only counted as 1 Credit), 1 Credit US History (to pass the Constitution Test). You needed 19 Credits to graduate. Requirements took up 10, giving you 9 that you choose yourself. I took 1 more in Math, 3.5 in Computers, 1 more Foreign Language, 1 in Drafting, 1 more History, .5 Driving, 1 in Economics.
When I got out of High School, I think I rated maybe only Language 0, Computer 0(1? I was pretty good there), Social Science (History) 0, Drive 0 and this with only getting a 29 on the ACT. As was said once of Peter Parker "smart, but lazy".