Jack of all Trades 0

[DickTurpin]

There are always two different rules for everything in this game. So ambiguous.
I tossed a coin, so Jack of all Trades will start at 1. And I don't think I've seen it at value 0 or in any of the background or basic training skills (which start at 0)?

I see nothing ambiguous in this instance, though...

JoaT can notionally have a level 0, it just does nothing - reason, its supposed to be a hard skill to invest in and develop - so there's not supposed to be an easy 'free entry' of getting the first level quickly.

So your vote is that Jack of all Trades should start at 0? Now what happens if you see Jack of all Trades on a skill chart, and your D6 lands on it? Every other skill your die has landed on you've been giving yourself a 1 for.

That is not what he said there. What he said was that while it is theoretically possible to have a JoaT skill of zero there is no reason to ever take it at zero. I am not aware of any way to actually get JoaT-0 but there is no specific (and unnecessary) rule to prohibit it.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I know how Jack of all Trades works once you have it. But how do you get it?

In my thinking, every Traveller PC has an unstated JOAT-0.

I like that. That's clever. So a default Jack of all Trades 0 for all starting characters at age 18. Judges will accept.

Also, if "Jack of all Trades 0" is written down on the character sheet, it reminds a player that that particular character of theirs does suffer the -3 DM on skill rolls they don't have. And it reminds other players to utilize their Jack of all Trades skill if higher than 0. A lot of players forget to use that skill during a game.

 

[Lemnoc]

So a default Jack of all Trades 0 for all starting characters at age 18. Judges will accept.

You might want to assign that after a completed tour of any particular Traveller-esque duty. As I mentioned, I'm unsure (and a bit uncomfortable) about any ol' rube having a JOAT assignment. Just seems the kind of roughneck riff-raff who end up as Travellers would pick up a lot of haphazard skills the way an unwashed scalp picks up dandruff. :lol:

 

[Wil Mireu]

Personally i wonder why any skill has a "level 0" at all. If you know how to do something then it's at level 1. If you don't, then you're just rolling your attribute on its own aren't you?

 

[Lemnoc]

Personally i wonder why any skill has a "level 0" at all. If you know how to do something then it's at level 1. If you don't, then you're just rolling your attribute on its own aren't you?

I’ve assumed a 0 represents that capacity (also described on p. 48), given no constraints of time or pressure, to simply perform a task without rolling for it. If you do not have the appropriate skill at all, then of course you must roll for it with the listed penalties.

 

[Wil Mireu]

I’ve assumed a 0 represents that capacity (also described on p. 48), given no constraints of time or pressure, to simply perform a task without rolling for it. If you do not have the appropriate skill at all, then of course you must roll for it with the listed penalties.

yeah, but it seems inelegant to me. You have either completely hopeless at something (i.e. roll 2d with penalties), capable of doing something but untrained (i.e. roll 2d with no penalties), or trained in doing the task (roll 2d+skill).

To me though, having a skill level listed at all implies that you are capable of doing that skill - if it's not listed, then you have no training in it. If I don't know how to drive, then I should get penalties when attempting to do it (or even just plain be incapable of doing it). If I know the bare minimum to be able to drive, then I should have skill level 1. I can't really see where a 'level 0' fits in that case.

 

[F33D]

Personally i wonder why any skill has a "level 0" at all. If you know how to do something then it's at level 1. If you don't, then you're just rolling your attribute on its own aren't you?

In MgT it means enough familiarity that you don't get a bonus or penalty. This is needed in that a skill level 2 means, in medical, that you are the equivalent skill level of an MD. So an undercut level was needed.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Personally i wonder why any skill has a "level 0" at all. If you know how to do something then it's at level 1. If you don't, then you're just rolling your attribute on its own aren't you?

Yep, sort of. Level 0 means you have basic training/knowledge. What does the book say... ok, no experience it says. So the skill has not been used since basic training. At any rate, 0 is better than no training at all. See -3 DM for untrained skill rolls.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

You have either completely hopeless at something (i.e. roll 2d with penalties), capable of doing something but untrained (i.e. roll 2d with no penalties), or trained in doing the task (roll 2d+skill).

You only suffer a -3 DM if you attempt a skill you don't know. So hire a pilot if you can't pilot.

To me though, having a skill level listed at all implies that you are capable of doing that skill - if it's not listed, then you have no training in it. If I don't know how to drive, then I should get penalties when attempting to do it (or even just plain be incapable of doing it). If I know the bare minimum to be able to drive, then I should have skill level 1. I can't really see where a 'level 0' fits in that case.

Level 0 means you passed a drivers test. But you have not driven ever since. Or you drive only when never because your buds all drive better than you, and they each have a car.

 

[Wil Mireu]

You have either completely hopeless at something (i.e. roll 2d with penalties), capable of doing something but untrained (i.e. roll 2d with no penalties), or trained in doing the task (roll 2d+skill).

You only suffer a -3 DM if you attempt a skill you don't know. So hire a pilot if you can't pilot.

I see it like this:

-3 - completely untrained
0 - untrained but has a reasonable chance of figuring it out without training
1 - formally trained at beginner level

I disagree with your example though. If you've passed the drivers test, you have drive-1. If you want to say that skill levels go down without practise then perhaps one could argue that after a while it'd deteriorate to drive-0, but I don't believe anyone can be trained to have skill-0 - it seems like an oxymoron to me.

It's like firing a gun. Yes, anyone can point the business end of a gun in the right direction and pull a trigger, and that could be considered to be 'Guns-0', but they sure aren't likely to be good at it under stressful conditions. But the moment they complete a firearms course, they'll have Guns-1.

 

[F33D]

0 - untrained but has a reasonable chance of figuring it out without training

The only problem with this is there are skills (Jump Drive) that there is no way in H you'd be able to accomplish with NO training yet you can have a Level 0 in...

 

[Lemnoc]

The only problem with this is there are skills (Jump Drive) that there is no way in H you'd be able to accomplish with NO training yet you can have a Level 0 in...

Part of the trouble with having unsubordinated, non-interrelated skill sets.* Some D100 games handle this through branch skills. D66 is a bit flat for that.

* see the Vac Suit / Zero G debate.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I see it like this:

-3 - completely untrained
0 - untrained but has a reasonable chance of figuring it out without training
1 - formally trained at beginner level

I disagree with your example though. If you've passed the drivers test, you have drive-1. If you want to say that skill levels go down without practise then perhaps one could argue that after a while it'd deteriorate to drive-0, but I don't believe anyone can be trained to have skill-0 - it seems like an oxymoron to me.

A character with Drive 1 is a good experienced driver. One cannot be good or experienced by passing a drivers test. How would you explain a newbie driver at level 1 going to racecar driver at level 2? Where is the in-between average level that most experienced people are at after driving for awhile?

If you're in the "Let's get rid of the Level 0 skill in Mongoose Traveller" group, well then that is for another type of game and discussion.

My list is:

No Drive = Never drove before. Has not watched how others drive.
Drive 0 = Trained once. Has done some driving.
Drive 1 = Experienced driver.

Getting a Drive 1 during a term (4 years) means a lot of driving was probably done to get Drive 1.
Getting a Drive 0 during basic means your character didn't drive all that much where he was stationed/working. Took the Aerotrain a lot instead.

A character with no Drive skill, but with Jack of all Trades 3, could figure out how to use a car at a level of Drive 0.

ShawnDriscoll, what brought you to ask the question in the first place?

Now you know.

 

[F33D]

The only problem with this is there are skills (Jump Drive) that there is no way in H you'd be able to accomplish with NO training yet you can have a Level 0 in...

Part of the trouble with having unsubordinated, non-interrelated skill sets.* Some D100 games handle this through branch skills. D66 is a bit flat for that.

* see the Vac Suit / Zero G debate.

Agreed. Pilot/Sensors/Comm would be an example too.

 

[Lemnoc]

A character with Drive 1 is a good experienced driver. One cannot be good or experienced by passing a drivers test. How would you explain a newbie driver at level 1 going to racecar driver at level 2? Where is the in-between average level that most experienced people are at after driving for awhile?

I think you point to the compression problem in d66. Adding in a 0 level helps ease the compression— "an undercut level," as one commenter put it—with the benefit of being anti-inflationary. So you don't have to employ Drive-4 to simulate a Formula 500 level skill.

To me, 0 level Cook means the ability not to burn or poison one's self, all other pressures being off. No one wants to share your dog's breakfast, though.

 

[Wil Mireu]

0 - untrained but has a reasonable chance of figuring it out without training

The only problem with this is there are skills (Jump Drive) that there is no way in H you'd be able to accomplish with NO training yet you can have a Level 0 in...

Yeah - those would be impossible to get level 0 in (unless, as I suggested, you'd known it at one point but were really rusty at it). But if you hadn't been trained in using skills like that then you shouldn't have any chance of success at all.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

"Our ship engineer and mechanic and doctor is a Jack of all Trades 3."

That would be scary to go on their ship.

 

[Wil Mireu]

A character with Drive 1 is a good experienced driver. One cannot be good or experienced by passing a drivers test. How would you explain a newbie driver at level 1 going to racecar driver at level 2? Where is the in-between average level that most experienced people are at after driving for awhile?

I'd say that the skill level descriptions are scaled incorrectly then. Maybe I'm coming at this from a WoD background here, but IMO level 1 should be "basic knowledge", 2 should be "average skill level", 3 should be "trained professional", 4 should be "expert" and 5 should be "grandmaster".

On my scale, Drive 1 should be for most people on the road - they know the basic skill but that's about it. Drive 2 should be for more experienced 'normal' drivers. Drive 3 is professional drivers, offroaders, people who have done advanced driving tests, etc. Drive 4 and 5 are for the hardcore stunt drivers and F1 drivers. But a F1 racecar driver shouldn't be as low as Drive 2 IMO.

As for JOT-0, that just makes no sense to me in the current system. JOT isn't even something that you can be trained in, it's just a measure of how well you can apply your intelligence and education to figure out things you've not been formally trained in before. And as described it's really kludgy because it doesn't work the same as other skills.

Personally I'd say skill-0 doesn't exist usually, but JOT allows you to get that ability for a specific skill for each level of JOT that you have - so each level lets you ignore the -3 unskilled penalty for one specific skill. So if you have JOT-5, you could select five skills that you have had no formal training in and you could then use them as if you have that skill at level 0. If you later get trained in that skill (to get level 1 or more in it), you'd pick another one (you can say it was your hobby, but now you learned it you picked another one). Though I'd limit it to skills that one could reasonably learn on one's own - jump drive engineering probably isn't a hobby skill .

 

[Lemnoc]

"Our ship engineer and mechanic and doctor is a Jack of all Trades 3."

That would be scary to go on their ship.

I've run a few Doctor + JOATs as NPCs over the years. Gives the players a handy, suvivable surgeon on hand who is also not completely useless at other things... without me having to anticipate what those other things might be. A Doctor McCoy type.

One of the best sorts of NPCs to have hanging around, actually.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I'd say that the skill level descriptions are scaled incorrectly then. Maybe I'm coming at this from a WoD background here, but IMO level 1 should be "basic knowledge", 2 should be "average skill level", 3 should be "trained professional", 4 should be "expert" and 5 should be "grandmaster".

Ok. You're used to how another game does things. That'll wear off after playing Mongoose Traveller for awhile. I came from GURPS after playing Classic Traveller. Hated Classic Traveller. Its game rules are contained in its skill descriptions. GURPS is that way, too.