Is RuneQuest Broken? Here's Why...

simonh said:
In fact the situation is a little more complicated because it's possible for both characters to succeed and then it's down to the lowest roll, but I think you can see that in an opposed rol it's not the absolute percentage you are rolling against that is significant, it realy is the ratio of the skill percentages. I think the halving rule is an excellent one and is a novel improvement to the basic RQ system.

Simon Hibbs

Not quite. Look at the skill comaprion threads.


For one thing ib both succed, the highest roll wins (See page 20) and if both fail the lowest roll wins.

That means that if tboth players roll between 01-40 it its a toss up, and the same case holds ture if both roll over 60. You see the problem is that when the 60 goes against the 40% it turns out the difference between the skills is more imortant than the ratio.

For instance if the 60% rolls between 41-and 60, he will win. THat is his edge. If both fail, the lower skill character is more lijely to win, since he has a wider range to fail in (41+) instead of (61+) It is the whole "succed on a failed roll" that throws everything out of whack.
 
atgxtg said:
It is the whole "succed on a failed roll" that throws everything out of whack.

Only when the Halving rule is applied. A 60% vs. a 40% gives the 60% a 60% chance of success and the 40% a 40% chance of success. Actually any combination of attacking and defending skills that add up to 100% give each exactly their own chance to succeed. So a 70 and 30 has a 70% and 30% chance of success.

As I suggested in the "so what's left?" thread I was considering using the idea of allowing the 100%+ character to get a second roll that he can add to the first if the second roll was under his skill -100 (and a third if rolled under his skill -200).

So Master Sneakthief with 120% Stealth rolls a 53 and Mildly Perceptive Guard with a Perception of 60 rolls a 55. MS rolls again and gets a 14, so his total would be 67 and he would win. If the second roll was over 20 he would add nothing and fail.
 
Howdy,

It was nice to play some RQ at GenCon last weekend, as well as pick up all the new stuff (VERY nice to see 3rd party RQ stuff again!). We had a blast, and we are all RQ vets of 25 years.

HOWEVER, we can't play RQ as-is at home. Some of the weapon damage is absolutely surreal (Longbows doing 2d8?! ). I feel the urge to modify the criticals, forget the -40% to avoid armour, and modify the weapon and armour stats. Also, making literacy available to characters who have 80%+ in a language is too simplistic for my tastes. And thats just for a start!

That said, the new RQ is a great new direction. I think that the OGL will be a winner, and the rules have a "take-what-you-want-and-drop-what-you-want" feel to them. Nice.

The Mongoose people had a great booth and also had great customer service. Always a plus in this industry!

Ken
 
Lord Twig said:
atgxtg said:
It is the whole "succed on a failed roll" that throws everything out of whack.

Only when the Halving rule is applied.

Yup. I mentioned the problem to draw attention to demostrate the halving rule problem. Several of us are trying to figure a work around.

Although I was intiaially aginst someone's idea of a reroll if both fail, I'm starting to warm to it.

:idea: I was thinking that if both fail it could be treated as some "push" or stalled attempt.

For esxample, let's say our hero Rusk Runerapier is trying to sneak past a Lunar guardsman (of for second age, a loony guardsman). Both fail. Rather than resolving the situation, Rusk could get part way past the guard, but maybe he made a noise and hard to duck under a streetcarrt or something while the guard looks around wondering if her heard something or not. Rusk can get another chance to slip past the guard in a bit when the situation calms down. Or maybe Rusk can make a "meow" noise and put the guard's suspicions to rest. Or maybe Rusk might have to wait until something else catches the guard's attention.

Later, the GM could allow another oppsed roll, and add the failed task time to the result. So Rusk may or may not make it past the guard, but it will take longer than expected either way.

THis could work for all sorts of contests, and might add drama to the adventure. Even wnen the "oppostion" is animimate like getting stuck half way up a tree. It even ffixes the halving rule problem.

Plus it is easy and requires no new math to learn. :D
 
simonh said:
I've seen the 'halving skills over 100%' rule being criticised, and I think this is based on a naive and simplistic analysis of the probabilities.

Sorry to say this Simon however from your analysis it seems that you're taking the naive view of the probabilities involved.

My calculator is available and you are welcome to read through my probability calculations in the code (which is heavily commented).

To put it simply (and reuse your example): -

A is a thief using Stealth of 90% and B is a town guard with Perception of 80% ... and it is a non-combat example.

The chance of A winning his Stealth vs Perception opposed roll is 58.05%.

Let's say A improves over the course of adventures while the town guard stays with Perception of 80%.

As A gets to 100% his chance of winning is 62.7%.

As A gets to 105% his chance of winning is 55.61%... it actually goes down!

The thing is, this is considerably worsened if the town guard has a lower skill.

For instance, A has 95% and B has 20%.

Chance of A winning is 92.05%.

A has 105% and B has 20%.

Chance of A winning is now 47.7%!

There is a mathematical anomaly here and it is exceptionally clear.
 
My problems are thus:

* You start off quite powerful, in a combat sense. A starting character with an average STR and DEX of 13 each (not unreasonable given 4d6 drop the lowest and stick your scores wherever you fancy) get's 26 base in 2H Sword, be a noble and get +15, be a solider and get +10, bung in 30 points on top and you're got 81% 2H Sword. Sounds a bit powerful for a starting character to me. A few lucky rolls and you'll nearly be at 90. And what self repsecting warrior would desire other than this level of skill? But I always found the fun part of RQ the lower levels when hitting and missing were both realistic options. I think starting at about 50% would've been better, maybe 60.

*Rune Integration looks costly, 1 POW just for the privelage of casting magic? Runecasting is insanely difficult. If I start off I might get 25% chance to cast a spell. Youch. I can see the thinking here - high level characters in old RQ bandied about with silly amounts of magic, and by demanding POW and the increasing of a low skill it slows down the increase in power so very few people will have access to a wide variety of very powerful spells. But it does remove some of the RQ feel. Not every warrior has a bladesharp, not every healer has Heal, and so on and so forth. I'm not certain that this can be avoided on a campaign by campaign basis unless the Glorantha book has the rule that all Runecasting starts at double starting percentage or something along those lines, but I think that that's a major rule change that would have unwanted consequences elsewhere.

* High level spells are too easy to get hold of. Imagine a priest or rune lord. They can get any spell at magnitude 8, it costs half price if it's a cult spell. So if your cult has bladesharp then it'll cost 6,400 SP which is dead easy to find because you can flog the plate mail you take off of dead opponents for four and a half grand. Two suits of platemail and you're away. That's not going to be a unique occurence IMO. It won't constantly occur, but any rune lord or rune priest should be able to rake up that amount of cash. Moreover, it looks as if power crystals aren't that rare either. You should aim to pick up a POW 3 power crystal by rune lord hood. Hence, a Bladesharp 11. Or protection 11 or so on and so forth. That sounds a bit powerful to me. I also reckon an inventive acolyte (who can also get magnitude 8 cult spells) can probably do the same trick. Even if it's not a cult spell, then when they nick a POW 3 power crystal of the corpse of a dead foe (which will surely happen at some point on the road to acolytehood) then for a mere 800 silver you're bangning out your choice of magnitude 7 spells, from Pierce to Bladesharp, whether it's a cult spell or not. Ouch.

* You might say that the GM just has to make sure power crystals never go in the game, or at least not POW 3. Here a flaw from original RQ has still found it's cancerous little home - the problem of magical item economy. Once your PCs get a few magical items their enemies will likewise need magical items (enchantments, crystals so forth). Unless you want every broo attack party to have gross chaos features to make up for lack of magical items, and every elf to have "Married to the elven god" as a HeroQuest power giving them access to a resevoir of magic points instead of carrying around crystals, then when your PCs bump them off they're going to nick all the items. Now there're more powerful, and the next set of enemies will need more items. And so on and so forth. Any reasonably long term campaign will become a nightmare of the GM trying to justify enemies that face the characters without those enemies (once defeated) resulting in a power bump to the group that makes the problem worse.

*Fireblade is naff as it only increases your weapon to 1d10. Why choose that rather than a Bladesharp 4? Even if you cast Fireblade on the weakest weapon, a dagger (why bother on a bigger weapon, the increase will only be marginal!) you only do 1d10 whereas with Bladesharp 4 you'd do 1d4+5, which is a lower maximum but a far higher minimum and average roll. Fireblade is pointless, the Yelmlaions just got shafted.

* Pierce is more problematic. It's underpowered. Why take one point of armour ignoring, when Bladesharp gives you 1 point of damage (which is better than pierce and gets you an extra 5% to hit). I can see one upside is that you can stack them, so a Bladesharp (11) plus a Pierce (11) would be a possible combo. But should Pierce really play second fiddle to Bladesharp? I'd recommend it ignoring two points of armour for balance.

* All this pales in comparison to Skybolt. 3d6 through armour without a to hit roll? That's going to be 75 metres at 15 POW. 75 metres that I can blast you whilst you cover it to get close to me. I reckon that's about 9 combat actions. So I get to blast you 9 times (magic point permitting, but you can get off at least 4 with your normal POW, and presumably you can pick up magic point crystals to help you). Sure, I need to make that Runecasting roll but it's worth getting that skill up as soon as possible. Even at 50% I'm going to hit four or five times, and that dodge roll is going to be failed at some point (especially if you overcharge it with 10 magic points!). 3d6 through armour will annhilate a foe. And it can be done, unlike original RQ's Thunderbolt, as often as you like because you don't need to repray for it. At first I thought this was balanced because the rune was 'Chaos', but I now take it that's a misprint because the Storm King has it as a cult spell, and his enemy is specifically chaos.
 
Don't forget that the chaos rune needed for the Skybolt spell has the effect of reducing the defenders dodge by 30% when trying to avoid the spell.

As I've said before, the magic system seems awfully incomplete. It's just RQ3 spirit magic made more complicated and restricted, nothing really added to make it more fun or useful.


Vadrus
 
Fireblade is naff as it only increases your weapon to 1d10. Why choose that rather than a Bladesharp 4? Even if you cast Fireblade on the weakest weapon, a dagger (why bother on a bigger weapon, the increase will only be marginal!) you only do 1d10 whereas with Bladesharp 4 you'd do 1d4+5, which is a lower maximum but a far higher minimum and average roll. Fireblade is pointless, the Yelmlaions just got shafted

I don't think Yelmalians got shafted. Unless you mean by ZZ when he nicked their ability to cast fireblade. Yelmalians are please fireblade is now c**p. :twisted:
 
Alloppo said:
I don't think Yelmalians got shafted. Unless you mean by ZZ when he nicked their ability to cast fireblade. Yelmalians are please fireblade is now c**p. :twisted:

D'oh! My I be torn asunder by the Spider Woman herself for such a foolish schoolboy error.
 
A probable reason for the fireblade damage-it does not do excessive damage, but all the damage it does is magical damage. This still makes it a good spell.
 
Gaheir said:
A probable reason for the fireblade damage-it does not do excessive damage, but all the damage it does is magical damage. This still makes it a good spell.
Plus it's still more effective against certain types of creature. I know which of the 2 spells I'd rather have in a fight against a Gorp.

But I see some discussion about MRQ magic in Gloranthan terms above. Pointless, really, because it's not Gloranthan magic.
 
Gaheir said:
A probable reason for the fireblade damage-it does not do excessive damage, but all the damage it does is magical damage. This still makes it a good spell.

Given the rarity with which you meet such creatures, it still seems strange to me.

The addition of 1d10 damage sounds good because, say you cast it on a greatsword, you get a damage range of 3 to 28 with an average of 14.5 (I think) whilst the corresponding damage for a bladesharp would be 7 to 20 with an average range of 13, and a bonus 20% to hit, which makes them comparable in power.

However I'd prefer the replacing of all damage with 3d6. Certainly a spell that added 1d10 flat damage for four magic points is a good spell, and a nice variant on Bladesharp, I want a spell that could turn my dagger into a killing blade. So for the sake of variety I think I'd stick to 3d6 replacing the whole weapon damage, and add in a variant Bladesharp spell that added 1d10 (amongst other die multiples) to your damage.
 
And are th eother problems discussed elsewhere? I haven't had a chance to check out all the forum yet.
 
Nikk said:
And are th eother problems discussed elsewhere? I haven't had a chance to check out all the forum yet.

All over the place. There is a majority of peole who are big fans of the system, but there are those who are not as pleased with MRQ. A lot in going into try to fix the messed up task resoultion system, and skill halving.


I can't wait to get to the movement rates. Sprinting 8m in 5 seconds? Even with a 19 DEX annd 4 actions that's a jog, not a sprint. Movement seems to be about half speed.
 
atgxtg said:
A lot in going into try to fix the messed up task resoultion system, and skill halving.

Ai, I only realised the problem with skill halving when I read about the terrible brokeness of it here. It's a biggy.

Movement rate? Sounds like it needs a good tweaking (at least that's an easy one to fix!) :D

Personally I'm worried about the high skill levels to begin with. Clearly some part of character generation needs to go, but which?
 
I quite like decent skill levels to start with. I dislike characters having to start out as hapless n00bs, as in D&D (especially older versions) having to cower in fear of everyone and everything.
 
Nikk said:
atgxtg said:
A lot in going into try to fix the messed up task resoultion system, and skill halving.

Ai, I only realised the problem with skill halving when I read about the terrible brokeness of it here. It's a biggy.

Movement rate? Sounds like it needs a good tweaking (at least that's an easy one to fix!) :D

Personally I'm worried about the high skill levels to begin with. Clearly some part of character generation needs to go, but which?

So fix it. :)

Off the top of my head you could do the following:

1. Don't allow freebie points to be spent on skills gained from profession/culture. (Harsh, but doable)

2. Limit the number of freebie points to 75, or 50. (This is very doable, and doesn't "break" anything.)

3. Don't allow more than 10 or 20 freebie points to be spent in any basic skill. (Again, easy to implement)

The beauty of MRQ is how modular it is. Unlike d20, you can add and subtract bits without bringing the whole house of cards down.

Hyrum.
 
GbajiTheDeceiver said:
But I see some discussion about MRQ magic in Gloranthan terms above. Pointless, really, because it's not Gloranthan magic.

I think it is. Yes MRQ is intended to work for generic fantasy too, but the primary purpose of it is for gaming in Glorantha. Therefore I think it's reasonable to assume that any rules and setting information it provides is valid for Glorantha, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

A lot of the material in it is Glorantha specific - al the runes in the magic system are Gloranthan. All the monsters fit with the versions we're familiar with from Glorantha, and some are unique to Glorantha - like Broo.


Simon Hibbs
 
Nikk said:
atgxtg said:
A lot in going into try to fix the messed up task resoultion system, and skill halving.

Ai, I only realised the problem with skill halving when I read about the terrible brokeness of it here. It's a biggy.

Movement rate? Sounds like it needs a good tweaking (at least that's an easy one to fix!) :D

Personally I'm worried about the high skill levels to begin with. Clearly some part of character generation needs to go, but which?

THe movement rate of 4m/action, 8m for charge or sprint, works out with an average character running 16m/round (5 seconds), annd a fast character twice that (32m).

Now real life numbers are close to around 45m/round and 65m/round

So if we double the movement rates, we would get 32m for an average character, 48 for a fast, and 64 for a very fast character.
 
Back
Top