Is Fighters firing first so bad?

[Frohike]

the fighters are called Thunderbolts, I think it is at least two episodes after severed dreams where captain Sheridan goes out for a test flight with another as escort and bumps into Bester.

As for the change in mechanic it is a quick and dirty fix, but at least it means I get a shot of with my WS fighters before they go boom

 

[LordClinto]

I guess I'm the only person on the forum who likes the idea of simultaneous fire...

Moving last makes sense. They have super initiative, and so can watch the battle unfold and move quickly to where they need to be. Firing first... makes no sense. Firing last... makes no sense (and in Full thrust it seriously hurts fighters and makes them somewhat pointless).

What's in the middle? Simultaneous fire The best of both worlds...

It's almost a good idea.

The only problem I have with simultaneous firing is how do you easily track what you have fired from what ship.

Some times it comes down that I'll fire anti-fighter (usually with the Weak trait) at a cap ship as a last ditch effort. I think that if Anti-fighter weapons shot at the same "initiative" as fighters there would be a heck of a lot more crits on cap ships before the initiative winner got to fire for the first time.

 

[Alexb83]

Seriously? The same way you keep track of everything else you've fired in the normal sequence. You remember it, or write it down.

And you make it so that only the ship under attack (or any ship manouvering to shield a ship under attack following the movement phase) can return fire on the fighters attacking it during the fighter attack phase. And it can only do so using its AF or MB weapons (they are the ones designed to shoot at fighters and on mounts quick enough to react to the attack)

Afterwards, other ships can shoot at the fighters in the normal shooting phase.

 

[Balance]

I would disagree with any rules requiring support ships for fighters... Canon often shows Starfuries being launched from B5 and traveling quite a distance for missions, especially when they don't have the White Star or other allies handy. Sometimes they may be accompanied by a shuttle, but I don't think the Hermes is strictly canon, so even it's too big.

 

[Davesaint]

Hiffano,

I agree with you. There are some inherent problems with fighters firing first, especially with the Vree. One major problem is the wide disparity in the quality of fighters. While having a couple of Kothas firing their 1AD weak at you is not bad, the fighters like the T-Bolt, Vorlon, WS, and others are pretty vile. What makes the T-Bolt really bad is that often the defender does not get to shoot them at all due to the Afterburners. I would prefer it if fighters activated with the ship they were lauched from for firing purposes, and that individual wings would be an activation choice at the same time as the capital ships.


Dave

 

[prelude_to_war]

I like the new fighter rule. Races like the Vree (which people love to point out) may be vulnerable to fighters but they have the other aspects of the league to draw upon, hence the very existence of the league itself. Anyone choosing to not maximize the diversity of the League and go with only one race is asking for it in one department or another, especially when taking on a 'major' race.

What makes the T-Bolt really bad is that often the defender does not get to shoot them at all due to the Afterburners.

But if my fighters are escorting my capital ships, you wouldn't be able to shoot until that screen were cleared.

I would prefer it if fighters activated with the ship they were lauched from for firing purposes, and that individual wings would be an activation choice at the same time as the capital ships.

Good in theory but has the potential for a logistical headache keeping track of everything.

 

[Obsidian]

Mongoose have a nasty habit of overreacting to rules problems, I mean just look at the Whitestar in SFoS, the Tourney Saggitarius, the tourney Shadow hunter etc.

Actually, the Saggitarius was changed because Matt was painting the model one day and thought "Gee, look at all the missile tubes on the sides. Think I'll change the stats to go with the model." I'd point to the post where he said this and announced the Tournament Rules, but like so many of the old posts it has gone missing. Great deal of knowledge lost there unfortunately.

 

[Locutus9956]

so he thought 'gee look at all those missile tubes, Ill up the stats to match the model'.

Then seemingly he thought 'gee now I'll lower it to skirmish becuase I've gone insane'

 

[Obsidian]

Then seemingly he thought 'gee now I'll lower it to skirmish becuase I've gone insane'

Yeah... no explanation ws forthcoming for that one....

 

[Davesaint]

I like the new fighter rule. Races like the Vree (which people love to point out) may be vulnerable to fighters but they have the other aspects of the league to draw upon, hence the very existence of the league itself. Anyone choosing to not maximize the diversity of the League and go with only one race is asking for it in one department or another, especially when taking on a 'major' race.

What makes the T-Bolt really bad is that often the defender does not get to shoot them at all due to the Afterburners.

But if my fighters are escorting my capital ships, you wouldn't be able to shoot until that screen were cleared.

I would prefer it if fighters activated with the ship they were lauched from for firing purposes, and that individual wings would be an activation choice at the same time as the capital ships.

Good in theory but has the potential for a logistical headache keeping track of everything.

Depending on the race you are running, escorting your ships with fighters might or might not help that much. The EA can field an enormous amount of fighters. If 1/3 to 1/2 of your fighters are starfuries, it will more than make up for any amount of escorting fighters that the ship may have on it, which if I remember has a maximum of 4. So you engage the escorting fighters with your furies, and use your t-bolts to smoke the ship.

My comment on the Vree is valid, and while there are other ships in the League that do carry fighters, most of them are +0 dogfighters and won't last long. We have played a number of games using the new rules, and have some concerns about the balance issues with the fighters firing first.

As far as the logistics of knowing which fighters to move when a ship activates, it's not bad if you have either numbered counters or numbers on the bases of your fighter stands.


Dave

 

[emperorpenguin]

the fighters are called Thunderbolts, I think it is at least two episodes after severed dreams where captain Sheridan goes out for a test flight with another as escort and bumps into Bester.

Nope they are never called Thunderbolts in that episode or in the show, just new Starfuries

 

[captainsmirk]

There are some who think it is in facta Thunderbolt Starfury, like the Aurora, Nova, Tiger, etc... :?

Nick

 

[emperorpenguin]

There are some who think it is in facta Thunderbolt Starfury, like the Aurora, Nova, Tiger, etc... :?

Nick

They're correct, the term "Starfury" is the project name, Tigers, Novas, Auroras, Badgers, Thunderbolts are all Starfuries

 

[Fin-man]

Actually, it's been my experience that the fighters firing first is not the issue - the critical hits that result from the fighters firing first that is the issue. I've seen far too many ships crippled (both effectively and literally) with fighter critical hits since Armageddon came out.

My recommendation is that fighters should either:
A) Only do critical hits with a D3 for results table. (E.G. - they can only roll a 1-3 on critical hit location and a 1-3 on the result.)

or

B) Not be able to cause critical hits unless armed with a precise weapon. (I know this option would be controversial.)

Fin-man

Out of general interest are fighters such a problem firing first? I've played multiple fleets (Centauri, EA, Minbari and Dilgar) against fighter heavy fleets (once against 4 Avengers!) and never had too much of a problem.

And now with Armageddon theirs no reason for anyone to go whingeing about not having enough fighters; with points splits you can spend one point; generally get one or two initiative sink ships and then two wings of fighters; whats to complain about?You killed two birds with one stone(okay Drakh players i know you don't have any fighters!)

Comments?

 

[Target]

They way we play fighters and you could use them to great effect was to fire them in wing sized groups eg 4 sentri, 3 furies 2 Nials ( tourney pack) during the same phase as ships. It became a decision to when you fire the fighters. We also moved fighters in wing sized groups in fighter move phase. This also gives you a chance to react. Fighters only roll d3 for location as well.
When your fighter had fired put a dice on it or something just like ships that had fired.

 

[CodeofArms]

The idea fighters should be moved and fired with the rest of the fleet seems pointless; if you move them all they are either avoided or put into a position where they can't return fire. Why would anyone ever bother?

The current rules work best; fighter ranges are so short that you get at least one salvo off before a combo of AF and regular weaponry hits you. In fairness i think thunderbolts should have a +3 dodge to help compensate for an increased hull and better loadout than Starfuries.

 

[Target]

They aren't move with the rest of the fleet, in fighter movement phase. See above post. Firing in the same phase means you have to make tactical decision weather you fire them of something else. Sometimes you fire the fighters or sometimes you don't. If you fishing for crits that take weapons or engines or even depleteing interceptors. I suspect they gone Mongoose went for first is to save on book keeping. 1st ed fighters went first, 2nd went last, 3rd back to first.

 

[LordClinto]

My recommendation is that fighters should either:
A) Only do critical hits with a D3 for results table. (E.G. - they can only roll a 1-3 on critical hit location and a 1-3 on the result.)

The only problem with that is the fact that fighters should be going for vulnerable spots, if they can.

Ex: shooting at the bridge, at weapons or engines, (shield emmiters, ala Star Wars CPU games).

I do like the only rolling a d3 on the result table suggestion though.

 

[Target]

Didn't go into our house rules to much but we have precise on all fighters to show they are targeting specific things and rolling d3 for location. Modded the crit chart to have
1- bridge hits and such generally no extra dam just annoying crits
2- Engine crits
3- Weapon crits

 

[boom_huh]

The D3 crit table is a great idea. My White star fighters keep blowing up ships and taking themselves with it because of the explosion. If we did that maybe they would just leave the the ship dead.