Ion Cannons

[Lord David the Denied]

Maybe because in the TV show most of the times we see the Centari fighting they like tend to be up close and personal with their opponents.

Personally I like my stand back Centari.

You mean the times we Vorchans fighting. The Primus that attacks B5 fires when the station is a small, indistinct shape in the distance, and the energy pulses vanish to nothing before the camera moves to show them striking the station. That's not exactly up close and personal.

 

[captainsmirk]

Difficult to tell really, since in space anything that is within in visual range is short range...


Nick

 

[cordas]

I ain't argueing with you, just repeating the arguements that I have heard used against me numerous times, because i like my stand back and shoot Centari.

 

[Alexb83]

You know, visually, people that are only a few hundred meters away look pretty small to me. Since we have no scale in ACTA to equate inches to KMs... I take it all with a pinch of salt.

It was just a perspective shot - the really long range engagements were done with the Narn/Shadow fight, where JMS specifically went for cross-cutting between the fleets to give a real impression of how far they were firing their beams from.

It's always struck me as strange for instance that shadow slicer beams in the game are so short ranged - or is 18 inches supposed to equate to the same distance as a low orbit? (remember them cutting up the narn colony from space?)

 

[Lord David the Denied]

In the Narn/Shadow fight the Narn beams dwindle to nothing before the camera switches to show the Shadows dodging the shots, too. A Shadow ship isn't a half-mile long and massive space station, though. People a few hundred metres away look tiny, but large buildings need to be much further away to look the same size. Massive space stations would need to be even further away.

 

[katadder]

ok consider this:
a gas giant is minimum size 10" in the game. now gas giants are huge, way bigger than earth.
so consider how far 10" is in game range. quite a distance really.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

We should all be playing with Fleet Action models, then... :wink:

 

[katadder]

the reason we dont though is the same reason you dont in BFG and why it doesnt matter what scale minis you use or even counters - its because the only thing that counts is the centre point or the stand on each ship, cos thats where the ship is, a little insignificant dot. perhaps we should just play with named dots.

 

[cordas]

Would make painting your fleet a lot easier..... 8)

 

[emperorpenguin]

From the sounds of it they are going to make centauri players rethink there battle plans a bit. From long range beaming, to closer range slugging it out. EA will be a bit more problematic with all those interceptors. (especially with my skill at rolling sixes at the wrong time)

yes new tactics will be required. I can foresee some Centauri players trying them out with the old tactics, losing and thinking they've been nerfed. But once they adapt their approach they'll appreciate the power of the ion cannons

 

[Morakas]

It matter naught. Centauri will win because we are Centauri! Centauri win because they need reasons to throw parties.

 

[Abraxas]

I think they should be low range, high AD with P, AP (maybe DD)... but that's just me.

Yeah, they sound niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice like that :twisted: ...

I'm probably WAY off :roll: ...

Why would you think that? Where's the evidence for ion cannons being short-ranged?

Well, I'm referring to game mechanics (since when was this game based on canon evidence :wink: ?) because if you have high AD (because of the shear number of turrets) you have to sacrifice something. And rather than have just TL as a stat, I figured you could compensate for the high AD and decent second abilities (AP, DD, P, etc.) with low range.

It's about balance, for me.

 

[CZuschlag]

Again, I remind you, that under the changes to CAF with 2e, AP and TL are just about on a par, so you can look to the Dilgar as guidance. Remember, the Targrath is a bit much right now, so the better example is the.....

Rohric
Raid
Speed 5
2/45s
About 26 Hull and 30 Crew or so (can't remember exactly)
Hull 6
Bolters F 15" 8 AD, AP, DD
Disruption Torpedoes F 20" 6 AD, AP, DD, SL
Pulsars FASP 8" 5 AD
Mass Drivers Never Really Fire Anyways.

Not exactly heaps of dice. If you want to go faster than 5", that'll cost you elsewhere. Interceptors will cost you. Side-mounted Ion Cannons will cost you -- Dilgar ships are front-towards-enemy only, which doesn't seem to fit the Centauri design from what I see on the models. I doubt you will get this many dice, or hull 6, at any point.

The Tourney Targrath was:

Raid
Speed 12
Hull 5
2/45's
32 Damage, 34 Crew
Bolters 10", F, 12 AD, AP, DD
Energy Pulsars 8", A, 4 AD Twin-L.

Zero side guns. You want side guns? That'll cost front guns. Want Interceptors? That'll cost some more.

Another example to think about might be the Chronos. It runs around with 6 AD of turret.

Just saying -- The Centauri players may want to temper their expectations of High AD. I don't know what the final product will be, but previous guidance is here, in a race that already exists.

 

[katadder]

but dont forget the dilgar could be changing too.
the centauri are going to be a mainly forward arc fleet with some side, and few ships with anything to the rear (mostly just the biggest ones).
to qoute matts S&P article:
Gone are the big lasers (a few lighter
models remain), to be replaced by ranks of
Double Damage ion cannon. Most of these are
concentrated to the Fore arc, and only the larger
ships, such as the Primus, have serious firepower
to the sides. Very few ships in the Centauri fleet
have rearward firing guns.

so from that you can make your own conclusions about numbers of AD.

 

[CZuschlag]

True, my Dilgar may be horribly mangled from the initial design. But, given that from the initial onset of he revison to Ion Cannons, the Centauri have been treading into the Dilgar design space; there's really not much of anywhere else to go, given the limitations on the d6 base and the traits currently available. Heck, the 2e weapons distinction space is far smaller, as we no longer have distinctions Beam vs. SAP Beam vs. AP Beam, which as weapons all performed differently; now, they're just all Beam. So, that just sort of makes sense. There's only so many different 1d6 dice mechanics left out there!

However, we have seen what has been judged as balanced before for the Dilgar, and even if they have been changed, what is considered as balanced for the race at Raid has not; and as long as Raid means the same thing on the board as it did before, it's still a valid criteria to consider. If you are an AP DD to TL DD race, F arc really only, you should expect about about 11 dice forward bearing with very slow Hull 6 and no defense systems, and 12 dice forward at very fast Hull 5 with no special defense systems; both of which will have very minimal point defense capabilities and no auxilliary craft. At least, that's historical precedent.

 

[emperorpenguin]

There are similarities between the Centauri and Dilgar fleets true.

Differences will be that the Dilgar will be tougher and more "all round armed"
Centauri more fragile, faster, more agile, more forward focussed

Dilgar also make much use of missiles

 

[CZuschlag]

I expect there will be a few other differences, I expect, as well. Marginally useful Mass Drivers will certainly change a few ships, such as the Khatrik and Mishakur. Dilgar are probably still a bit unique with Pentacon and Masters of Destruction, the former being a real change, and the latter being a background mechanic that is (mostly) divided in, with Vorlons and Shadows being immune to the effects. The Suicide Thorun, if fighters are more generally available, will be ..... very unique, and even potentially abusive in wave attrition situations (Patrol Scout mugging comes to mind -- ram that Vaarl!).

It's just that new Centauri will need to think like old Dilgar without CAF (you already have the primary effect with Twin-Link, but you can't use a Scout or a order and a CQ check to get a secondary AP boost yourself). Opponents will need to treat them the same way.

Just a passing thought -- there is a reason why the Dilgar get almost no Skirmish Bolters. If the Vorchan or other Skirmish ship gets Ion Cannons in any large quantity (over 4), it's a complete nightmare ship. There's a reason why the Ochliavita got forward-bearing pulsars only!

 

[Locutus9956]

I heard some things about early playtest versions of the 2nd Ed Vorchan that made me scream in horror but Im told theyre coming along nicely now

 

[emperorpenguin]

I heard some things about early playtest versions of the 2nd Ed Vorchan that made me scream in horror but Im told theyre coming along nicely now

that was because they tried to cram the Vorchan and Demos into one skirmish hull