Interaction of Boon/Bane and Task Difficulty

[Rockymountainnavy]

Reference: “Task Difficulties,” p. 58; “Boon and Bane,” p. 59; Difficulty, Boon/Bane and DMs, p. 61; “Significant Action - Attack,” p. 71; “Weather,” p. 78.

Discussion: Under Difficulty in Difficulty, Boon/Bane and DMs (p. 61) it directs, “Before any other factors are taken into account, the referee should set the difficulty of a task, based on how hard he believes the task should be without any exterior effects. For example, making a phone call is a Simple task, and remains so, even if the Traveller is hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm.”

Example 1: Traveller, UPP 777777, Athletics 0, attempts to make a phone call while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm (see Difficulty p. 61).
- Option 1: Resolve as per example on p. 61, Difficulty is Simple (2+). Hanging upside down is a Bane. Task is resolved as 3D6(Low) versus 2+. Success is AUTOMATIC (chance of success is 100%). Worst result is success with Effect 0. Best result is success with Effect +10. Indeed, the chance of Exception Success is 42%!
- Option 2: Alternately, set Task Difficulty based on an Athletics check (action upside down) with a Bane (weather, see p. 78). Assume Average difficulty (8+). Resolve action as 2D6 vs 8+. Chance of success is 42%. Range of successful effects is from 1 to 4. Range of Failure effect is -1 to -6.

Example 2: Traveller, UPP 777777, Guns (Rifle) 1, attempts to make a shot in the middle of a ferocious storm (see “A Difficult task…” p. 58). Per example on p. 58, Task Difficulty is set as Difficult (10+). Note that this is in conflict with the Significant Action - Attack (p. 71) which sets Difficulty as Average (8+) with a Bane (per Weather, p. 78). Per p. 61, Boon/Bane depend on exterior factors. Ferocious storm seems like an exterior effect (negative environment) and should not be considered when setting difficulty (indeed, Weather on p. 78 specifies it is a Bane).
- Option 1: Resolve as p.58. Task roll is 2D6+1 vs 10+. Chance of success (roll 9 or higher +1) is 28%. Range of successful Effect is 1-3. Range of failure effect is -1 to -7.
- Option 2: Resolve as Boon/Bane. Roll 3D6(Low)+1 versus 8+. Chance of success (roll 7 or higher +1) is 58%. Range of successful Effect is 1 to 4. Range of failure Effect is -1 to -5.

Desired Action: Clarification needed. Application of Boon/Bane in conjunction with Task Difficulty can lead to wildly different results. In Example 1, using the Rules as Written success is automatic and the chance of Exceptional Success is 42%. An alternate method introduces a chance of failure. In Example 2, when resolved as specified on p. 58 there is only a 28% chance of success whereas using the Combat method the chance of success is 58%.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Trying them out on my app to see...

Example 1: Traveller, UPP 777777, Athletics 0, attempts to make a phone call while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm (see Difficulty p. 61).
- Option 1: Resolve as per example on p. 61, Difficulty is Simple (2+). Hanging upside down is a Bane. Task is resolved as 3D6(Low) versus 2+. Success is AUTOMATIC (chance of success is 100%). Worst result is success with Effect 0. Best result is success with Effect +10. Indeed, the chance of Exception Success is 42%!

You're rolling for a snake eyes in that situation. Critical fail.

If however, you are playing just by the rules without a referee and Bane/Boon is always enforced, "Traveller Simulator" breaks down if you are expecting a death scene to happen for a skilled character who was doing something simple.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

Trying them out on my app to see...

Example 1: Traveller, UPP 777777, Athletics 0, attempts to make a phone call while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm (see Difficulty p. 61).
- Option 1: Resolve as per example on p. 61, Difficulty is Simple (2+). Hanging upside down is a Bane. Task is resolved as 3D6(Low) versus 2+. Success is AUTOMATIC (chance of success is 100%). Worst result is success with Effect 0. Best result is success with Effect +10. Indeed, the chance of Exception Success is 42%!

You're rolling for a snake eyes in that situation. Critical fail.

If however, you are playing just by the rules without a referee and Bane/Boon is always enforced, "Traveller Simulator" breaks down if you are expecting a death scene to happen for a skilled character who was doing something simple.

Right...forgot about the critical failure. In the long run it doesn't change much; instead of automatic success you now have a 97% chance of success.

On one hand I see how Boon/Bane can be used to simplify the DMs needed. According to p. 61, "Dice Modifiers: In general, these should be regarded as being 'hard-wired' into the rules, and only applied if they are listed in a Traveller rulebook or supplement." Boon/Bane are supposed to be "exterior factors" that influences the task for better or worse.

Using the RAW, I think determining how that is different from Task Difficulty will be a real challenge for the Referee. It would maybe help if Mongoose defined "exterior factors."

Looking through the pdf, "exterior effects" and "exterior factor" appears just once each (p. 61 for both).

 

[TrippyHippy]

What are the probability stats for using boon/bane dice and wouldn't it be a good idea to still include percentile probabilities in a table in the book somewhere?

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

What are the probability stats for using boon/bane dice and wouldn't it be a good idea to still include percentile probabilities in a table in the book somewhere?

You don't happen to be a big T5 fan, yes?

[Ducks for cover]

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

Trying them out on my app to see...

Example 1: Traveller, UPP 777777, Athletics 0, attempts to make a phone call while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm (see Difficulty p. 61).
- Option 1: Resolve as per example on p. 61, Difficulty is Simple (2+). Hanging upside down is a Bane. Task is resolved as 3D6(Low) versus 2+. Success is AUTOMATIC (chance of success is 100%). Worst result is success with Effect 0. Best result is success with Effect +10. Indeed, the chance of Exception Success is 42%!

You're rolling for a snake eyes in that situation. Critical fail.

If however, you are playing just by the rules without a referee and Bane/Boon is always enforced, "Traveller Simulator" breaks down if you are expecting a death scene to happen for a skilled character who was doing something simple.

Right...forgot about the critical failure. In the long run it doesn't change much; instead of automatic success you now have a 97% chance of success.

Hmm. Looked again and I don't find a reference to snake eye critical failure. Where did you find it?

 

[TrippyHippy]

What are the probability stats for using boon/bane dice and wouldn't it be a good idea to still include percentile probabilities in a table in the book somewhere?

You don't happen to be a big T5 fan, yes?

[Ducks for cover]

I like T5, at least in it's re-released edited version, for what it is. However, it's design goals are very different to what Mongoose is trying to do.

That said, having just a simple presentation on the probability of success included for two-dice rolls (as were including in MongTrav 1st edition) can be helpful in setting difficulties on the fly, while my suspicion for Boon/Bane dice is that the impact on any given task check is huge - more than a 25% probability shift for success.

Either way, I'd like that to be confirmed.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I don't find a reference to snake eye critical failure. Where did you find it?

It's a referee thing. Going back to rolling natural 2s and 12s. They won't go away even if not mentioned in this book. A chart for a Boon roll looks like this http://shawndriscollrpg.blogspot.com/2012/10/an-alternate-die-roll-for-traveller.html

 

[TrippyHippy]

Would people like to see automatic failures/successes for rolling snake-eyes/box-cars respectively? Or botch/critical? It'd be a 1/36 chance for either.

Or should the rules just stick with effect level determined by margin of success/error?

 

[Cugel]

What are the probability stats for using boon/bane dice and wouldn't it be a good idea to still include percentile probabilities in a table in the book somewhere?

Yes, please: simple in concept, but a chart with probabilities is needed.

 

[Stainless]

The Boon/Bane mechanism conceptually sounds good, but it's obviously causing difficulties in interpretation already. They've gone from a binary concept; roll + modifier, to a trinary concept; roll + modifier + boon/bane In my book that's making things more complicated, not simpler. At the least, the alleged gains made from decreasing the number of DMs are negated by the judgement needed for applying a boon/bane. The mechanic needs to be more clear-cut and concrete and/or far better explained I think.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The Boon/Bane mechanism conceptually sounds good, but it's obviously causing difficulties in interpretation already. They've gone from a binary concept; roll + modifier, to a trinary concept; roll + modifier + boon/bane In my book that's making things more complicated, not simpler. At the least, the alleged gains made from decreasing the number of DMs are negated by the judgement needed for applying a boon/bane. The mechanic needs to be more clear-cut and concrete and/or far better explained I think.

What's so hard about understanding 3D6 (minus the high or low die)? The rules mention when Boon/Bane, +/- DMs, and Difficulties are used for rolls.

 

[Stainless]

What's so hard about understanding 3D6 (minus the high or low die)?

Nothing.

The rules mention when Boon/Bane, +/- DMs, and Difficulties are used for rolls.

Not very clearly. Demonstrably so, hence topics like this.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

Here is another example of why I am having trouble fully understanding Boon/Bane and Task Difficulty:

The rule "Going Faster or Slower" on p. 60 states:

You can choose, before you roll, to move up or down one level on the Timeframes Table. Moving up one level (reducing the time increment) inflicts a Bane on your check; moving down and increasing the time taken gives you a Boon on your check.

But in the example that follows, the wording used references "difficulty" and "easier." Remember that Task Difficulties (p. 58) states, "Some tasks are easier or harder to complete then others....When the referee decides a task should be either easier or harder, he may change the target number needed for the check."

For example, Kathya is trying to fix a damaged jump engine in the middle of a battle. Repairing the engine would normally take 1D hours, but an enemy ship is closing fast and they need to jump as soon as possible. Kathya therefore decides to increase the difficulty [my emphasis] and suffer a Bane to her check to her check in order to reduce the time by one step....A week later, when they emerge from hyperspace, Kathya overhauls the engine. This time, there is no time pressure, so she opts to increase the time taken from 1D hours to 1D x 4 hours to make the task easier [my emphasis again], giving her a Boon.

I am pretty sure the intent of Going Faster or Slower is to use Boon/Bane in relation to time but the wording hints at Task Difficulty. So to be clear, which is it?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I am pretty sure the intent of Going Faster or Slower is to use Boon/Bane in relation to time but the wording hints at Task Difficulty. So to be clear, which is it?

Fixing anything will have a difficulty of some kind. (2D roll is made)
Now add being-rushed on top of things. (Bane roll is made instead)

Bane/Boon make rolls harder/easier to make. They don't make difficulties harder/easier. This all works out in-game without having some text needed to spell it out for us. Good referees will know how rolls work.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

I am pretty sure the intent of Going Faster or Slower is to use Boon/Bane in relation to time but the wording hints at Task Difficulty. So to be clear, which is it?

Fixing anything will have a difficulty of some kind. (2D roll is made)
Now add being-rushed on top of things. (Bane roll is made instead)

Bane/Boon make rolls harder/easier to make. They don't make difficulties harder/easier. This all works out in-game without having some text needed to spell it out for us. Good referees will know how rolls work.

I agree. Just wish wording was clearer.

 

[-Daniel-]

This all works out in-game without having some text needed to spell it out for us. Good referees will know how rolls work.

Shawn, while I agree a good "referee" should be able to work it out, that is not an excuse for not presenting rules in the clearest and cleanest manner we can. The rules as written could be made cleaner.

 

[vladthemad]

This all works out in-game without having some text needed to spell it out for us. Good referees will know how rolls work.

A core rule book should explain everything very clearly for NEW referees and players, and not make any assumptions.

Edit: Ugh, Daniel beat me to it

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Example 1: Traveller, UPP 777777, Athletics 0, attempts to make a phone call while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm (see Difficulty p. 61).
- Option 1: Resolve as per example on p. 61, Difficulty is Simple (2+). Hanging upside down is a Bane. Task is resolved as 3D6(Low) versus 2+. Success is AUTOMATIC (chance of success is 100%). Worst result is success with Effect 0. Best result is success with Effect +10. Indeed, the chance of Exception Success is 42%!

You kind of answered your own question there. The referee (or the player) then narrates what happens, based on the effect. Same goes for when the difficulty is Formidable (14+). The narration will be based on the effect, rather than a binary failure-only narration.