Initiative

A

Anonymous

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Say Frank the Barbarian has the following bonuses:
Class Reflex Bonus: +5
Dex Bonus +3
Lightning Reflexes: +2


His total Reflex save bonus is: +10

Is his Initiative
A) +13 (Total Reflex plus Dex Bonus)
B) +10 (Reflex except for Dex; plus Dex)
or C) +8 (Dex Bonus plus Class Reflex bonus only)

I had been working under the assumption that it was A, but the Monster Section seems to point to B or C, but that doesn't mean anything since Text and Table problems abound.
 
This is covered in rulemasters, but here ya go...

Initiative= d20 + BASE REFLEX (no modifiers such as dex, feats, class abilities, magic, etc.) + DEX Mod. + Misc. (feats such as Improved Init, class abilities that affect Init, magic, etc.)

So in your example it would be d20+5+3+0=d20+8 or answer C
 
After looking at the FAQ it would be A. (Page 2 just before sorcery.)

Personaly though, I'm going with base reflex in my campaign.

Thrack
 
Then the FAQ is insane. Its going to be "C" in my games, although I will allow any relevent feats, abilities, and magic to be counted as well. I just cannot see any justifiable reason why you would add your Dexterity twice and unless I get a good logical reason you won't in any game I'm running.
 
Does it really make a difference though? I mean besides making EVERYONES Initiative higher.

/pause to reflect...

On second thought it would make a difference if you had someone with a positive dex modifier battling a person with a negative dex modifier. The initiative spread would be larger.

Bah, (math - coffee) * late to work = head ache

Have a good day all.

Thrack
 
Although the FAQ indicates it would be answer A, in my campaign the answer would be B.

Init=Dex+Base Ref+Feat modifiers
Init= 3+5+2
Init=10

(I was told by Mongoose Paul that Lightning Reflexes also adds to initiative.)

Of course, the FAQ indicates the dex would be added in twice, making for a 13 Init. I personally don't care for that answer, but, as GM, I can alter rules as I see fit for my campaign, so my answer is B. Init = 10.
 
I read the FAQ just before starting our first game session last night, and I disregarded the whole 'double-dex' bit. AFAIC, your initiative is Total Reflex Save (Including Dex, Lightning Ref, etc) + any Initiative-related feats (Imp. Init, Blooded from FRCS, etc). If a feat affects both Initiative and Reflex save, I only count its benefits once (i.e., if some feat down the road gives +2 Init and +2 Ref saves, then the init only goes up by 2, not 4).
 
It is absolutely nonsensical to factor in one's DEX bonus twice. The way I play, you factor in your DEX mod + base Reflex save + Improved Initiative + misc. initiative bonus (such as Ferocious Attack), which already cuts into the usefulness of Improved Initiative as a feat. Doing it the FAQ's way eliminates the need for ever taking Improved Initiative.

I am extremely disappointed in Mongoose's "munchkin" ruling and hope they will rethink it and revise the FAQ as quickly as possible. Bad editing is one thing, but bad rules are quite another. :cry:
 
I have no problem with the dex getting added twice. In essence, it's say that if you have tow people of the same reflex save, the one with the higher dex goes first.

Although, it possible for a char with a lower reflex save to go before a char with a higher one if the lower char has a good dex bonus. *shrug* I can go for that, as the character just has a natural quickness.

I still see Improved Init as good if you thought it was good before though.
 
DrSkull, I will simply have Initiative be equal to the PC's Reflex Save (which already includes Dex, no point in adding it twice), including Feats, and other bonuses to the Ref save. So I'd answer "B", although the FAQ doesn't agree with me. :p

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 
I could be wrong, but it looks at first glance as if the NPC sheets we downloaded only count DEX once for initiative.

For example:
10th level Cimmerian barbarian

Base Ref = +7
DEX bonus = +3
Imp. Init. Feat = +4

This totals 14.

If we added DEX twice, it would be 17.

Right?
 
Yes, the NPC sheets use Dex once because they were made before the release of the FAQ that states otherwise.

Keep in mind their own King Conan stats reflect initiative with Dex only added once. The Initiatives for the Black Corsairs and the Picts on the Warpath in the core rule book ALSO use the Dex-added-once rule. I think the FAQ is in error on that single point.

Probably the easiest way to calculate initiative is to use this formula: Initiative = Full Reflex Save + other feats that add to init.
 
VincentDarlage said:
Yes, the NPC sheets use Dex once because they were made before the release of the FAQ that states otherwise.

Keep in mind their own King Conan stats reflect initiative with Dex only added once. The Initiatives for the Black Corsairs and the Picts on the Warpath in the core rule book ALSO use the Dex-added-once rule. I think the FAQ is in error on that single point.

I sure hope you're right, but it really stinks that they are making more mistakes in their FAQ to "correct" the mistakes in the book. :evil:
 
Okay, so the FAQ and the published stats don't match.

I think I will end up going with Intiative= Reflex Save (plus Improved Initative if applicable), that seems to me to be the most elegant solution, and the double DEX was giving some truly monstrous bonuses to high level thieves. I mean high is one thing, but +23 is something else.
 
Personaly I'm gonna use total reflex save + Dex + feat. Though I don't think it really matters one way or the other. I just know Players like to see high numbers on their character sheets. Which is good for me since it distracts them from the fact that my NPC are a bit meaner than they should be.
 
I raised this exact issue a little while back, I guess it has come up again due to the FAQ? Anyway, I'm with most, like Johanixx below, that DEX will factor in only once.

Johannixx said:
I read the FAQ just before starting our first game session last night, and I disregarded the whole 'double-dex' bit. AFAIC, your initiative is Total Reflex Save (Including Dex, Lightning Ref, etc) + any Initiative-related feats (Imp. Init, Blooded from FRCS, etc). If a feat affects both Initiative and Reflex save, I only count its benefits once (i.e., if some feat down the road gives +2 Init and +2 Ref saves, then the init only goes up by 2, not 4).
 
Iron_Chef said:
I sure hope you're right, but it really stinks that they are making more mistakes in their FAQ to "correct" the mistakes in the book. :evil:

Rather tricky that one.
The rule on p161 says you Add 1d20+dex mod+Ref Mod+misc.
I'd say the Ref Mod here must be the Base Ref Save.

hmmm... then again, it does say at the top of the page: "Your saving throw modifier is: Base save bonus + ability modifier"

So I guess it should be added twice according to the rules....

I don't care, as long as they can't explain WHY the heck you should add it twice, I'll rule it out as a DM. (It kind of goes against the whole simple mechanism of the game doesn't it?)

/wolf
 
Is it just me, or is some people not even reading what the posts are in this thread? Just posting their thoughts without reading through the entire thread.

Perhaps if we could be more patient the official FAQ/ERRATA (or whatever you want to call it) would have been more complete. But, people once again must have it now now now.

/Sigh

I'm probably going to be attacked by picts by saying this.

Almost like little kids peeking, prodding, poking and fondling their x-mas gifts under the tree. Then when x-mas comes they look at their new found toy and pitch it in the trash realizing that it wasn't quite what they wanted. But, their parents grimace at the hard work they put into the effort of giving the gift to them.

Atleast our Mongoose parents are trying their hardest to give the "gift" that we crave. So, please stop whining.

I'm sure the newly improved FAQ will be out. Or if it doesn't, I'm not going to be whining. I'm going to be out slaying picts or whatnot.

Yes, those damned picts are almost here, so I gotta run. Hopefully, I can jump across that stream this time.
 
Odovacar's Ghost said:
Is it just me, or is some people not even reading what the posts are in this thread? Just posting their thoughts without reading through the entire thread.

Perhaps if we could be more patient the official FAQ/ERRATA (or whatever you want to call it) would have been more complete. But, people once again must have it now now now.

/Sigh

I'm probably going to be attacked by picts by saying this.

Almost like little kids peeking, prodding, poking and fondling their x-mas gifts under the tree. Then when x-mas comes they look at their new found toy and pitch it in the trash realizing that it wasn't quite what they wanted. But, their parents grimace at the hard work they put into the effort of giving the gift to them.

Atleast our Mongoose parents are trying their hardest to give the "gift" that we crave. So, please stop whining.

I'm sure the newly improved FAQ will be out. Or if it doesn't, I'm not going to be whining. I'm going to be out slaying picts or whatnot.

Yes, those damned picts are almost here, so I gotta run. Hopefully, I can jump across that stream this time.

You got yours as a "gift"?

Lucky bastard! I paid hard earned cash to get my copy of the game... almost $60 USD... if nothing else that gives me the right to at least comment on stuff I believed they have messed up a little.

But I'm not whining, I love the game, and I rule as a DM where I think the rules themselves are a bit fuzzy... so I don't have a problem.

/wolf
 
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