Improving Armor on ships

PsiTraveller

Cosmic Mongoose
Odd question: Suppose you buy/find/capture a ship and want to improve it.

Is it possible to remove the old armor and put better armor on, or even add more armor to the ship using the same type of armor?

Could you get a larger M-Drive or Jump Drive into the ship or a power plant to overcome power limitations, or increase power to get more or better weapons? Assuming there is extra space available in the cargo area could you reconfigure things to improve a ship? If so, how much modification do you folks allow?
 
there isn't anything in the rules to stop you...but I wold say that would require a full shipyard and skilled engineers to pull off.

when I let players do upgrades they have to find an A or B class starport, and it takes as much time as listed for initial construction of a ship the same cost as the upgrades would cost. minus the price of the parts of course.
 
MgT1 Trillion Credit Squadron said:
Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.
It would seem that the armour is not bolted on the hull, the armour is the hull.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
MgT1 Trillion Credit Squadron said:
Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.
It would seem that the armour is not bolted on the hull, the armour is the hull.


Even on battleships you could upgrade armor. I tend to see a starship as having an internal structure, a pressure hull surrounded by equipment, then the outer hull wich incorporates the armor. It's not simple, but it can be done by a competent engineer with a shipyard at is disposal.

if you view the armored shell as an integrated structure that is the frame of the ship, adding plates, or supplemental armor packets over key areas is possible as well. It's a matter of distributing the stresses and reinforcing the outer hull to distribute it properly.Once again you need a competent engineer and access to some heavy duty hardware.
 
Well the Trillion Credit Squadron answers the armor question, sadly. No beefing up the protection after the fact.

What are your opinions on changing the internal design of the ship and increasing Jump Drive or M Drive or powerplants?
 
MgT1 TCS said:
There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes). Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.
MgT1 TCS said:
... Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size though they may be reduced. Other components may be increased in size if there is tonnage available.
In LBB2 hulls has a fixed size for the Engineering compartment, and drives can only be placed there. We might allow a smaller Jump drive in exchange for a bigger M-Drive, or vice versa.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
MgT1 TCS said:
There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes). Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.
MgT1 TCS said:
... Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size though they may be reduced. Other components may be increased in size if there is tonnage available.
In LBB2 hulls has a fixed size for the Engineering compartment, and drives can only be placed there. We might allow a smaller Jump drive in exchange for a bigger M-Drive, or vice versa.


MgT1 is now superseded so we have to wait for the revised version for a definitive answer...however I am not fond of that approach since it flies in the face of existing realities.Bolt-on armor packets, and reinforcing hulls is a pretty common practice. If you are running a purely OTU as written go with the no upgrades rule as it stands until otherwise stated...but each Ref has the right to tweak the rules as they see fit.
 
Either if the original designer or the spaceship you crafted gave thought to why armour can't actually be removed, due to the electrical circuitry and water mains embedded in it.
 
Modifying ships are of course possible. The ban on structural/armour upgrades should perhaps be seen as that this is not common or economically efficient.

I have always seen heavily armoured spacecraft more like tanks, where the armour is the hull and forms a monocoque chassis to which other components are fixed. The armour is not just metal plate, it has internal structure like modern composite metal/ceramic armour. Just adding metal plate is not optimal.

Perhaps we can allow adding additional armour at 150 - 200 % volume and cost, where half the added volume is internal and half the added volume is external (making the ship bigger). Then we can do it, but it is very inefficient, so most users will not do it.

In the same sense we could allow the drives to be upgraded to be bigger, but at 200% the cost since we have to rip open the ship and rebuild a large part of the interior.
 
Adding armor should be allowable. Essentially you are layering more on to what is there. However it's not "just" that. When you add more plating to the outside you have to move sensors to the outside of the new armor, move communication antenna, possibly remove turrets and raise them up to have a clear firing angle, etc. So if you allow it you may want to toss in another 15-25% cost on top to pay for things like that. Major weapons (bays, etc) should be ok, as should things like hangar doors, airlocks and such.

As for replacing drives and making other major changes, that should require a shipyard and be allowable.
 
If you bolt more armour on the outside of your ship you have just increased its volume for drive purposes.

You would have to add the armour inside the hull or put up with the reduced drive performance
 
Yeah - my only concern here is to realise that armour isn't "bolted-on". It something that is built into your ship construction as it does take volume. If any of you are familiar with Battletech rules, this wouldn't really qualify as a "refit" but more of a complete overhaul.

In my opinion, this about as close as you get to re-construction without actually doing so.
 
Sigtrygg said:
If you bolt more armour on the outside of your ship you have just increased its volume for drive purposes.

You would have to add the armour inside the hull or put up with the reduced drive performance

From a practical standpoint that isn't possible. But you have the right idea - if you change the overall volume of the ship by adding armor and NOT reducing some other systems/space allotments (like trading more armor for less cargo), then this would be true. Otherwise you could swap out something and remain the same overall tonnage. Kinda depends on how detailed you want to get.
 
In real life, when the engineering improved, the Admiralty had the option of stabling more horses, or bolting on more armoury things.
 
OK, I see what was quoted about TCS but aren't those rules mainly for torment play, not your adventure class ship or a warship found and brought back to life? for instance someone mentioned tanks.

"Three main reversions of the M1 Abrams have been deployed, the M1, M1A1, and M1A2, incorporating improved armament, protection, and electronics. These improvements and other upgrades to in-service tanks have allowed this long-serving vehicle to remain in front-line service. In addition, development for the improved M1A3 version has been known since 2009.

In July 1973 a trip to the United Kingdom, in order to witness the progress of British developed Chobham special armor, was made by representatives from Chrysler and General Motors escorted by the personnel from the Ballistic Research Laboratory and the XM1 Project Manager, Major General Robert J. Baer.[64] They observed the manufacturing processes required for the production of this special armor and saw a proposed design for a new British vehicle utilizing this special armor. Both contractors reevaluated their proposed armor configurations based upon the newly obtained data. This led to major changes in the General Motors XM1. The most prominent of which is the turret front changing from vertical to sloped armor. The Chrysler XM1 on the other hand retained its basic shape although a number of changes were made. The Ballistic Research Laboratory had to develop new special armor combinations in order to accommodate the changes made by the contractors.[65]

For the base model M1 Abrams, Steven J. Zaloga gives a frontal armor estimate of 350 mm vs armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding-sabot (APFSDS) and 700 mm vs high-explosive anti-tank warhead (HEAT) in M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982–1992 (1993).[10] In M1 Abrams vs T-72 Ural (2009), he uses Soviet estimates of 470 mm vs APFSDS and 650 mm vs HEAT for the base model Abrams. He also gives the Soviet estimates for the M1A1, 600 mm vs APFSDS, and 700 mm vs HEAT.[9]

Armor protection was improved by implementing a new special armor incorporating depleted uranium. This was introduced into the M1A1 production starting October 1988. This new armor increased effective armor particularly against kinetic energy rounds[66] but at the expense of adding considerable weight to the tank, as depleted uranium is 1.7 times more dense than lead.[67] The first M1A1 tanks to receive this upgrade were tanks stationed in Germany. US-based tank battalions participating in Operation Desert Storm received an emergency program to upgrade their tanks with depleted uranium armor immediately before the onset of the campaign. M1A2 tanks uniformly incorporate depleted uranium armor, and all M1A1 tanks in active service have been upgraded to this standard as well.[68] This variant was designated as the M1A1HA (HA for Heavy Armor).[8]

For the M1A1HA, Zaloga gives a frontal armor estimate of 600 mm vs APFSDS and 1300 mm vs HEAT in M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982–1992, nearly double the original protection of the Abrams.[8] In M1 Abrams vs T-72 Ural, he uses different estimates of 600 mm vs APFSDS and 700 mm vs HEAT for the front hull and 800 mm vs APFSDS and 1300 mm vs HEAT for the front of the turret.[9]

The Abrams may also be fitted with reactive armor over the track skirts if needed (as in the Tank Urban Survival Kit) and slat armor over the rear of the tank and rear fuel cells to protect against ATGMs. Protection against spalling is provided by a Kevlar liner." copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

So in the end the M1 was brought back striped down and rebuilt at least three reversion times and the "Armor" redesigned and reinstalled as well, So in traveller nothing is mentioned in the MGT1 core or HG about not being able to do such to spaceships and referring to TCS is RAW but mainly for torment restrictions. We see tones of modifications / updates in most of our manufactured items in "real world". So I can see a restriction of the first "prototype" spacecraft of its new class being on the costly side but once done it shouldn't be much more than it would cost to build it that way in the first place. otherwise we would never have hot rods, ironclad boats, etc... even in computers if it dies you take whats left and rebuild better and faster, new processors, memory, hard drives etc... i.e. "where theirs a will theirs a way or there is more than one way to skin a cat"

If you go the requirement of same size or smaller because of the shell couldn't you infringe on the storage and rearrange internal walls (not support per-say like in a house) and install two or more smaller units in place of the larger unit similar to adding a locomotive to a train to pull more in tandem. In a way its like a team in tog of war. A lot of people pull on the rope. As the other people pull their load and it starts moving, yours gets easier and you can ease off. Just as long as they are all pulling in the same directions.

that's my 2cr worth,
 
Back
Top