I'm getting sick of "Lumbering"

[Keeper Nilbog]

True Matt, but all you actually do is remove one of the main fleets from general play. I, and i think many like me, will play Gorn as we've cold-bloods at heart. But surely a fleet that NO-ONE is going to take in a Competition setting should be raising someones eyebrows in a vulcan-like manner.

The main opponent of the Gorn, is the Romulan, and if they can get on your six because the ship cannot turn fast enough to counter, the Gorn empire would not exist, but be a Romulan protectorate. Good fire arcs, which we have, and with the 90* arcs given somee advantages over the core systerms, but 3 Phaser-1's fired Anti-torp do not save you from a 12AD+ Torp strike, and then he waits for you to take you move and goes the other way Even if you stop and pivot, he's now between 10-12" away, which drops us to the larger torps only, which gnereally don't fully cover P or S arcs) .

I know one of the Playtest groups said they NEVER played Gorn (which is worrying enough), but did anyone :?:

 

[Reynard]

The only fair and final solution are ship cards with the same stats for movement, defense and offense but the the name and illustration of various ships to differentiate each card. At the same time everyone could have the coolest most extreme depiction of how a ship should really look.

Personally, I'll keep playing a game based on 24 pages of simple rules and one of my favorite science fictions.

 

[storeylf]

We keep giving the same answer; CTA: SF is _not_ FC or SFB. They are different games replicating different things from the same universe.

I don't quite follow that. Is a more true statement actually that you are looking to represent the same thing but in a different game system, more geared to faster/larger games.

There seems to be an attempt to get the weapons as accurate as possible given the diffferent arcs. There seems to be an attempt to get the traits (labs, trans, tractors etc) as accurate as possible. Manouverability is as much as part of the SSD/Ship as weapons and traits, so why have you so badly penalised Gorns. Was it to make them so much more different? or was it because you thought they were overpowered other wise?

Maybe you are not trying to slavishly follow FedCom, but that doesn't actually explain why you made gorns lumbering.

I played some gorns last night, Once the fleets had past each other there seemed to be very little I could do, as I could not have turned back on the enemy very well. In fact I was concerned that, had we carried on, the table edge would be an issue due to the large turn circle, or that I woud have to sit still turning (and be a sitting duck).


PS - I really like the system, but have definate concerns about gorns and Kzinti (gorns being shafted by lumbering, and kzinti being over powering with mass drones). But, no, I still haven't played the number of games needed to decide whether they are well founded fears. But I'd still like to know why gorns are lumbering, when it clearly isn't because of anything from FedCom.

 

[Da Boss]

We keep giving the same answer; CTA: SF is _not_ FC or SFB. They are different games replicating different things from the same universe.

There seems to be an attempt to get the weapons as accurate as possible given the diffferent arcs. There seems to be an attempt to get the traits (labs, trans, tractors etc) as accurate as possible.

There does seem to be a alot more effort and pressure on this element - perhaps its because there are often minor elements (lanbs and transporters) of the game which don't effect balance much - ecept of course when you slap on extra guns or remove them and ignore any effects..........

 

[Captain Jonah]

So why is the Fed CA not lumbering, why is the Gorn CL not lumbering. They all have the same turn mode source???

I keep asking the question and I keep getting silence, I’m beginning to think it’s that sort of embarrassed silence you get when everyone forgot and no one wants to admit it.

We keep giving the same answer; CTA: SF is _not_ FC or SFB. They are different games replicating different things from the same universe.

Then I must ask why the Gorn just lost Phaser’s and the Rom gained Phaser’s. Was that not specifically to replicate exactly SFB and FC? You say ACTA-SFB is set to the same universe but its own game. That’s fine, can the Gorn have those Phaser’s back please. If they made it past the play test the Gorn’s have had (oh and by whom please) then they were balanced with the Phaser’s so there was no need for that the last errata to take them away.

Why is one part of the game being changed to exactly match SFB/FC and another part widely different?

What I have asked for before and had no answer for is why the Gorn are Lumbering, why was it done. What conversion process made them Lumbering? What was the logic behind it? Who play tested Lumbering Gorn cruisers?

Sorry Matt but you cannot argue both sides at the same time. If the game is its own game (which is fine) then you cannot take away or add stuff to make it a more perfect match for SFB/FC, if it is intended to be as close as possible to SFB/FC then why is it different?

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Ok, so the system 'reflects' the game play of SFB/FC and should produce results similiar to a game played within the core universe. That i can live with, :? , as it's what all the systems mentioned try to do, but at different levels (SFB - 1-3 ships per side, FC - 2-8 ships per side (though at fleet level, which is all i play, it 'could' possibly handle more) and ActA:SF - 6-15 (+) ships per side : i've played ActA:B5 with up to 20 ships on each side happily, and the core system is basically the same).

So, the issue seems (to me) actually to fall toward the fluff and background for the Gorn fleet, as their ships are generally classed as bricks in space (for maneuver and damge soaking). In that way, i can see 'why' lumbering was considered for them. Unfortunately, you now have a system in which the Klingon C8 (and KC9R) can out maneuver a Gorn Medium cruiser, so a Dreadnought is more able to maneuver than a war crusier (which is not true in any of the other systems), as both have turn 6, but the Gorn CM is lumbering.

I haven't played near enough games to see if the Gorn (or any other fleet for that matter) Fleet is at a disadvantage against the other Empires. the Gorn were always a 'grey' fleet, without an special 'effect' that made them stand out (damage soak excepted - though the Hydran APR ships were actually better at that :wink: :wink: ), so would/should be unremarkable in and of themselves. It was HOW you used them that gave them there power, but currently thats quite difficult (i won't say impossible, nothing should be impossible) and reduces the pleasure of the fleet.

I know that the Gorn are not one of the Big Three (Fed, Klink and Rom), but they 'may' deserve a little more love. And if any of the Playtesters who worked on the Gorn could say what they found (don't care if it's positive or negative, just nice to get some valuable feedback), i would be most greatful.

From a dedicated cold-blood, waiting in the wings :wink: :evil:

 

[archon96]

i found a fun way to play against fed with gorn, after the intial womp against my destoryers i mive them base too base with the fed cruisers. if my opponent destroys the hdd then it takes him with it.

 

[deadshane]

i found a fun way to play against fed with gorn, after the intial womp against my destoryers i mive them base too base with the fed cruisers. if my opponent destroys the hdd then it takes him with it.

I've been doing somewhat the same thing.

I've been rolling in with 4 destroyers (3 of them HDD's) sort of "screening" the cruisers who are advancing a bit more cautiously.

Once the destroyers are able to get in and mix it up....they've been locking on tractor beams to try and mess with the opponent's movement. It's that point that the cruisers advance and place a boresight shot on the tractored ship.

Sometimes the destroyers have to eat a ship explosion, but at least maneuverability is somewhat equalled in some cases. (since the opponent cannot move...sort of like the Gorn fleet.)

It's not working that well yet, but it might be a question of my proficiency with the formation/tactic.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

We keep giving the same answer; CTA: SF is _not_ FC or SFB. They are different games replicating different things from the same universe.

Fair enough. However I must ask what is the reason for the large amount of Lumbering in the Gorn forces?

Background Fluff? Game balance? What?

 

[deadshane]

I'd like to ask the same question...but totally out of curiosity.

Be careful guys, as we discuss this lets try not to all get "uppity" about it. It's just a game after all and nothing to get worked up about. Keep an eye out for your internet demeanor! :wink:

Matt and Co. did a really good job on this game and it's extremely welcome in the wargaming department as a new choice in a particular genre. Also, its focusing on exactly the right fictional universe for Naval battles in spaize.

...and I know none of us want to play the 'Clix Star Trek game... :roll:

Back on topic though, I would like to know what prompted the "lumbering" trait on so many Gorn ships as it seems to make them, not unplayable, but a fleet that seems to totally give up any initiative and is purely reactionary.

All the other rules seem to reflect fed/com but the lumbering trait on so many ships seems totally set them apart....and there must be a reason.

If it's something that ADB insisted on, I suspect they didnt fully understand what lumbering on so many primary ships would do to a fleet in this game. Also, perhaps lumbering needs to be looked at a little harder. Either that, or it may be time to add a racial trait to Gorn ships to aid in this matter.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Then I must ask why the Gorn just lost Phaser’s and the Rom gained Phaser’s.

That was not our choice.

Sorry Matt but you cannot argue both sides at the same time. If the game is its own game (which is fine) then you cannot take away or add stuff to make it a more perfect match for SFB/FC, if it is intended to be as close as possible to SFB/FC then why is it different?

The problem with the errata has been that the game has effectively developed two masters, each of whom is trying to do something a little different and cater to different players. However, we think we have found a solution for this that will be beneficial for everyone - please bear with us for a couple of days or so, and this should no longer be an issue.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Back on topic though, I would like to know what prompted the "lumbering" trait on so many Gorn ships as it seems to make them, not unplayable, but a fleet that seems to totally give up any initiative and is purely reactionary.

It is likely we'll come back to this but, for now, I'll say this;

If you play the Gorn as a reactionary force, you _will_ lose. Lack of agility and losing the initiative role does not mean you cannot force your opponent to react to _you_.

At the moment, almost everyone here is armchairing the Gorn. That ain't gonna work. Get them on the table a few times, try a few things out, and then we'll talk

 

[Iron Domokun]

At the moment, almost everyone here is armchairing the Gorn. That ain't gonna work.

Quite the contrary, Gornhide leather makes an excellent covering for armchairs.

 

[archon96]

gorn is all i have been playing, the only headache i really have is drones. they annoy me like no other. my two main strats are simple and annoying. strat 1 reinforce shields and move at 6 inchs a time acroos the board. i create a picket fence with my stegos, and swing the heavy stuff off to the side. if youre opponent likes running tight formats thismakes him think he can demolish the stegos and then pick off the cruisers. however stegos can usually survive against moderate abuse and hope youre opponent misses a bunch. the second strat is kind off annoying if the opportunity presnts i base my stegos on his biggest ships, if he goes for the kill he run the risk of hurting himself, while doing this i swing the big stuff back in from the flank. like i said drones are my biggest headache, they cost me shields and phasers just to fend them off. my son fires his drones every chance he gets.(he plays feds so kzintis will blow hard)

 

[storeylf]

Drones are definately a concern for me, it was only a small game (4 players with 2 large ships each), but playing the gorns the other night I was taking drone hits from just 2 klingon ships with drone 4 whilst using all my phasers and tractors to fend them off. I was able to weather it with constant boost shields (at 3D6), but I dread taking on more ships with drones in larger games. Kzinti in particular.

That may be a wider issue though, and not just gorn specific, even ADD doesn't last that long for many ships.

What bafflles us is why drones never run out of ammo like ADD, they both fire expendable ammo, why can one run out but not the other?

 

[tneva82]

What bafflles us is why drones never run out of ammo like ADD, they both fire expendable ammo, why can one run out but not the other?

Maybe something to do with the fact the other is primary weapon system.

Technically how come photon's don't run out? They need ammo as well.

If drone's runs out then you need to make phaser 1's, disruptors, photons and plasma's run out too.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Have to say that, now i've played Gorn (small 500pt game only, vs Romulan - we trying to go against Historical opponents only), the Lumbering wasn't an issue - though the CM did take a leisurely tour of the table at some points in the game, it was always able to contribute Phasers to the fight. Made the view of Lumbering 'slightly' different.

Matt, agreed, the Gorn are not really a reactive force, and too be fair generally have been, but 'should' be able too be if needed, especially vs Romulan (though, unless behind you (and you can 'see' them coming), your in range for plasma as well :evil: ).

The only thing of note that stood out to me (sorry , SFB/FC momnet coming) was how easy it was to kill Plasma's - stopped a 5AD plasma (G+F torp) dead with 5 phasers, which was a bit overpowering :shock: when compared to how they work in the core systems - 30+20 is 50pts damage, phaser 1x4 + phaser 3 would take around 20-30 max off, if lucky. Just means i need to get 'alpha strikes' with plasma's down pat.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Sorry Matt but you cannot argue both sides at the same time. If the game is its own game (which is fine) then you cannot take away or add stuff to make it a more perfect match for SFB/FC, if it is intended to be as close as possible to SFB/FC then why is it different?

The problem with the errata has been that the game has effectively developed two masters, each of whom is trying to do something a little different and cater to different players. However, we think we have found a solution for this that will be beneficial for everyone - please bear with us for a couple of days or so, and this should no longer be an issue.

Lock you both in a room and not feed you till its sorted perhaps :wink: :lol:

Back on topic though, I would like to know what prompted the "lumbering" trait on so many Gorn ships as it seems to make them, not unplayable, but a fleet that seems to totally give up any initiative and is purely reactionary.

It is likely we'll come back to this

We will be waiting :lol:

Re drones and ADDs running out.

Try looking at it this way. Ships are big, Drones are multiton but still tiny in comparison so a ship can carry a hundred or more in a fairly small area.

ADDs on the other hand are the same size but rather than having "cruise" drives designed to cover long ranges they have "Sprint " drives that last mere seconds but propel them at truly insane speeds. The ADDs don't just fire one Anti drone, they fire a group at the probable target vectors. A Drone cruiser can fire 20 or 30 drones over an entire battle, it can fire a hundred anti drones in the same time.

With the Feds they use the same drones but the technically advanced drone drives have both "cruise" and "sprint" settings and so the same drones are used for both modes. Burn through the ADD and you have emptied the ships Drone magazines. I see the never ending bit as a handful of star fleet engineers franticly converting Drones to sprint mode to restock the fast launch ADD racks ready for the next use, ADD runs low and the engineers convert more from the Drone magazine. Running out of one means you ran out of the other hence NO drones.

Phaser’s will burn out components over time but they never run out while the ship has power. Photons, Plasma cores etc are not so big that ships cannot carry a hundred or two. Quoting something off license "Captain we are down to 47 torpedoes". Special scenarios can cover this but for fleet games ships should have enough to fight several battles before running low.

It is only the rapid rate of fire from ADDs that runs them out of ammo.

Still nothing wrong with a resupply scenario. Your fleet has enough ammo left to fire one Photon/ Plasma salvo per ship, they start at one end. The resupply freighter with an escort is at the other and a bunch of enemy light and medium ships arrive along the middle of the sides.

Do they ignore your bigger warships and go for the supply ship, go for your warships making you use that last salvo and reducing you to just Phaser’s. Resupply takes transporters and requires down shields or shuttle use. Each transported unit of ammo gives you another salvo.

Keeper Nilbog. You need to gang up on people :lol:

Don't fire unless you can mass enough Plasma to crush a target, if an enemy can phaser the salvo down you need to reload and he gets to shoot you back. Two ships general bring enough Plasma to overwhelm an equal sized enemy and do significant damage. I'm talking Gorn here, at the DD end the Rom are a bit lacking on the newer ships. 4 Plasma-Fs just don't do it like 2 Gs AND 4 Fs do :twisted:

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

It was me shooting the plasma (off a snipe), but fully agree with all you say - the CM Killed a BH with it's full salvo - 11AD of Plasma goodness is not to be laughed at.

We (Gorn) also tend to carry more AD of plasma than the pointy eared bird boy's and against the 'eagle series', better phasers.

 

[Captain Jonah]

We (Gorn) also tend to carry more AD of plasma than the pointy eared bird boy's and against the 'eagle series', better phasers.

Lumbering aside we Gorn are clearly superior to the Pointy eared sneaks. Perhaps they should have stayed at home with the other vulcans so they could hide behind the Federations skirts :lol: