If you ever wanted to know the origins of the concept for the Aslan...

[MasterGwydion]

In terms of the aliens' publication dates, A2 Research Station Gamma (1980) appears to be the first mention of the Six Races, with the following text in Library Data:

"Major Race. An arbitrary distinction based on the achievement of a specific
intelligent race. A race which achieves interstellar travel (jump drive) through its
own efforts is classed major; one which does not is classed minor.
To date, generally accepted major races include Humaniti (Zhodani, Solomani,
and Vilani, but not other examples), Aslan, the Hive, Centaurs, Vargr, Ancients,
and Droyne.

The Droyne have been demonstrated to be major, having developed jump drive
as far back as - 7000. At present, however, they do not build or use jump drives,
and remain voluntarily sequestered in their scattered systems to spinward."

This seems to be saying that Droyne and Ancients are two different races, but it sounds more like they are talking about Droyne and Chirpers instead of Droyne and Ancients.

 

[Yatima]

... it sounds more like they are talking about Droyne and Chirpers instead of Droyne and Ancients.

I don't think so. First of all, the Chirpers are not a starfaring race, they are un-caste Droyne and live simple, pastoral lives rather than being a technologically advanced civilisation.

The way to think of this, as made clear in the Secrets of the Ancients campaign, is that the Droyne and the Ancients are distinct cultures even if members of these two cultures are the same biological species. It's one or other culture that develops and uses the jump drive, so the word race here is a little misleading and simplistic.

J

 

[MasterGwydion]

I don't think so. First of all, the Chirpers are not a starfaring race, they are un-caste Droyne and live simple, pastoral lives rather than being a technologically advanced civilisation.

Ummmm... Unless casting changes your race, Chirpers are Droyne and Droyne are Ancients almost the same way that Terrans, Zhodani and Vilani are humans.

The way to think of this, as made clear in the Secrets of the Ancients campaign, is that the Droyne and the Ancients are distinct cultures even if members of these two cultures are the same biological species. It's one or other culture that develops and uses the jump drive, so the word race here is a little misleading and simplistic.

J

I guess if they can call Terrans, Vilani and Zhodani different races, yet call them all human, then I guess no definition of race would be sufficient. Since Humans aren't a Major Race, only certain subsets of humans are considered a Major Race. Also, why are there a million races of humans, but only one race of Aslan, of K'kree, or of Hivers?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Also, why are there a million races of humans, but only one race of Aslan, of K'kree, or of Hivers?

Likely to a human those alien sub races all seem the same and are categorized that way. Maybe humans who grew up among them would see the sub races but other humans not see them.

They may even be literally indistinguishable by humans but to each other due to their senses the distinction is obvious. They may have different colour patterns where to humans the colour is uniform, or it could be scents or sounds they make while speaking that humans cannot hear..

 

[MasterGwydion]

Likely to a human those alien sub races all seem the same and are categorized that way. Maybe humans who grew up among them would see the sub races but other humans not see them.

Why does how they seem to a human matter? I am talking about game rules. Game rules do not care how a thing seems to one race or another inside of the game world. That is the whole difference between in-game and out-of-game. This is the matter I was discussing, not some weird symbolic discussion of race in real life.

They may even be literally indistinguishable by humans but to each other due to their senses the distinction is obvious. They may have different colour patterns where to humans the colour is uniform, or it could be scents or sounds they make while speaking that humans cannot hear..

So, they are all the same, as I said. Remember, Terran Human covers humans of Terra in all of their genetic diversity and they all have the same stats. What are the stat differences for their different "races" among the other Major Races? Now look at humans in Traveller. Even the Drinaxi and the Vespexers have different stats than the baseline human, but none of the other Major Races really do.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

How they seem to humans matters because the central culture is the 3rd Imperium totally dominated by humans. They are the ones doing the classifying. Now if your culture is centred on one of the alien races it could go the other way with all humans "looking alike" and them having races.

As to none of the other alien races being different they haven't (except Droyne/Chirpers) been evolving on alien worlds for a 100 thousand years or more and haven't been modified by the ancients on top of that. All of them evolved on one world and recently (in evolutionary terms) expanded into a stellar empire. They haven't had the time or genetic engineering of the Ancients to differentiate as much. Only humanity has races that can't interbreed or have limits on it.

 

[WHULorigan]

This seems to be saying that Droyne and Ancients are two different races, but it sounds more like they are talking about Droyne and Chirpers instead of Droyne and Ancients.

It was only disclosed over the course of the publication run of original Classic Traveller that the Ancients were Droyne. The Ancients were the Ancients - a Mystery, an Enigma, with only conjectures and speculations. And Humans of different independently evolved cultures and even subspecies were scattered across Charted Space. And uplifted Terran proto-Wolves were in the Coreward Extents. The Aslan, K'Kree, and Hivers all came later, but before Terran Humans reached the Stars (apparently). And why do little Droyne and Chirper enclaves keep independently popping up on worlds everywhere . . .

Libarary Data is an Imperial (or TAS) publication sourced from the AAB . . .

"The Six Major Races" has been a shell game from the beginning - There can always be more than 6 names to choose from depending on how you expand or collapse certain categories.

HUMANITI
* Solomani
* Vilani
* Zhodani
*(Geonee) - disqualified
ANCIENTS
* DROYNE
VARGR
ASLAN - (now technically disqualified)
K'KREE
HIVERS

 

[WHULorigan]

So, they are all the same, as I said. Remember, Terran Human covers humans of Terra in all of their genetic diversity and they all have the same stats. What are the stat differences for their different "races" among the other Major Races? Now look at humans in Traveller. Even the Drinaxi and the Vespexers have different stats than the baseline human, but none of the other Major Races really do.

Humans & Vargr were extracted from Terra, geneered, and transplanted to alien environments, where they subsequently evolved for 300,000 years. The other races were not.

Those human & vargr races, respectively, also later interbred; some thoroughly, others less so.

 

[Yatima]

Ummmm... Unless casting changes your race, Chirpers are Droyne and Droyne are Ancients almost the same way that Terrans, Zhodani and Vilani are humans.

Not quite. Not being caste arrests a Droyne's development in that they don't acquire the mental and physical characteristics of Drones, Sports, leaders or whatever. Droyne and Chirpers and Ancients are only all the same thing in the way a member of an uncontacted Amazon Tribe, a member of a modern human society and some far-flung future version of humanity are the same thing.

As you point out, the idea of a 'race' here is just inadequate to express the differences that matter.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Humans & Vargr were extracted from Terra, geneered, and transplanted to alien environments, where they subsequently evolved for 300,000 years. The other races were not.

Those human & vargr races, respectively, also later interbred; some thoroughly, others less so.

Ummm... Drinaxi and Vespexers. They live on the same planet, did not develop for hundreds of thousands of years apart, and yet have different stats than baseline humans. Using your logic, please explain.

 

[rinku]

This seems to be saying that Droyne and Ancients are two different races, but it sounds more like they are talking about Droyne and Chirpers instead of Droyne and Ancients.

That's specifically talking in the context of what Imperial (and other) scholars speculate on. Very much predating any in-universe reveal of the Droyne's origins. Many scholars did suggest the Droyne might be the Ancients, but as many thought they were a servitor species like Humaniti or Vargr. Keep in mind this is a public Library Data entry, not Referee's information.

The Droyne/Chirper connection is more obvious, but the fact that Chirpers are uncasted Droyne is a definite CT Secret to be revealed. I would guess that the common view is that they were related species from the same origin planet, or even that the Ancients had geneered Chirper pets to be Droyne servants. Genetic testing might not even settle that one way or the other; Droyne metamorph during the partially psychic casting process and that might have an effect on their DNA, at least maybe enough to muddy the waters to the extent that they only seem as close as humans and chimps.

And remember, no one does know where the Droyne homeworld is and they ARE scattered around the map, like Humaniti and some of the critters. (The Vargr less so. They seem to have basically radiated from Lair after they developed jump.)

The Referee's information and GAME RULES about Chirpers and Droyne are in Twilight's Peak, with a major follow up in Secrets of the Ancients. Which also has public Library Data entries that do not give the whole story.

As far as interbreeding humans, I expect they meant Vilani, Solomani, Zhodani and others being canonically interfertile. Not mixed on the same planet, but later, in the interstellar period.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It is for referees to decide the in universe relation between chirpers, droyne and the ancients, existing canon sources have similar stories but they contradict each other in places when you move between Traveller iterations.

I know how Don was going to write it in the MgT Droyne book he was working on, but until some other author writes a definitive version then we still have the contradictions. Not that that would be binding on any referee...

 

[rinku]

The Library Data entries can be as inconsistent as you like, though. And most of them are framed as speculation in this subject anyway.

And, as has previously been pointed out, anything the PCs are told by Grandfather or another Ancient relict could be a lie.

I'm also reminded of Marc stating that all canon is true, even that he wouldn't have done.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That's specifically talking in the context of what Imperial (and other) scholars speculate on. Very much predating any in-universe reveal of the Droyne's origins. Many scholars did suggest the Droyne might be the Ancients, but as many thought they were a servitor species like Humaniti or Vargr. Keep in mind this is a public Library Data entry, not Referee's information.

As far as I am aware, there is no actual Referee information in Traveller. Just in-universe perspectives.

The Droyne/Chirper connection is more obvious, but the fact that Chirpers are uncasted Droyne is a definite CT Secret to be revealed. I would guess that the common view is that they were related species from the same origin planet, or even that the Ancients had geneered Chirper pets to be Droyne servants. Genetic testing might not even settle that one way or the other; Droyne metamorph during the partially psychic casting process and that might have an effect on their DNA, at least maybe enough to muddy the waters to the extent that they only seem as close as humans and chimps.

And remember, no one does know where the Droyne homeworld is and they ARE scattered around the map, like Humaniti and some of the critters. (The Vargr less so. They seem to have basically radiated from Lair after they developed jump.)

The Referee's information and GAME RULES about Chirpers and Droyne are in Twilight's Peak, with a major follow up in Secrets of the Ancients. Which also has public Library Data entries that do not give the whole story.

As far as interbreeding humans, I expect they meant Vilani, Solomani, Zhodani and others being canonically interfertile. Not mixed on the same planet, but later, in the interstellar period.

Wouldn't a simple DNA test confirm that Chirpers are Droyne? How is this even a mystery? I know Droyne have been studied in-universe and so have Chirpers. Can't study and Ancient, because, well, good luck with that! lol! Has no one ever done a DNA test?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

As far as I am aware, there is no actual Referee information in Traveller. Just in-universe perspectives.

Wouldn't a simple DNA test confirm that Chirpers are Droyne? How is this even a mystery? I know Droyne have been studied in-universe and so have Chirpers. Can't study and Ancient, because, well, good luck with that! lol! Has no one ever done a DNA test?

Maybe not. (I'm assuming their DNA is similar to human). What if in casting some chromosome pairs merge (like 1 human chromosome pair seems to be the result of the merging of 2 pairs that have very similar properties in chimps and other apes) reducing chromosome count or the opposite they split into more pairs.

Unless humans were DNA testing uncasted Droyne knowing they were Droyne and not Chirpers it might well appear to be that one was a "mutation" of the other by those chomosome # reductions (or # increases). Could also be that in one or the other some chromosome pairs are duplicated making an even greater apparent difference. Casting might cause the duplication or remove duplicates.

All these options might very well change gene expressions giving the appearance of different species.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Maybe not. (I'm assuming their DNA is similar to human). What if in casting some chromosome pairs merge (like 1 human chromosome pair seems to be the result of the merging of 2 pairs that have very similar properties in chimps and other apes) reducing chromosome count or the opposite they split into more pairs.

Unless humans were DNA testing uncasted Droyne knowing they were Droyne and not Chirpers it might well appear to be that one was a "mutation" of the other by those chomosome # reductions (or # increases). Could also be that in one or the other some chromosome pairs are duplicated making an even greater apparent difference. Casting might cause the duplication or remove duplicates.

All these options might very well change gene expressions giving the appearance of different species.

Only if humans understanding of genetics hasn't advanced in several thousand years to the point where humans can genetically modify living creatures in basically any way they choose. Dolphins, Apes, aquatic humans, desert humans, etc. Seems like humans in Traveller have a very good understanding of genetics. Good enough to spot genetic manipulation. They have tons of examples from humans and other races to choose from for comparisons to natural genetic mutation. I would think that by TL-15 this should be easy.

Edit - The bigger question would be is Casting genetic modification?

 

[rinku]

As far as I am aware, there is no actual Referee information in Traveller. Just in-universe perspectives.

Don't be disingenuous. It does not become you and makes you look foolish.

There are usually entire sections labelled Referee's Notes. MegaTraveller even had a section that was a commentary on the public Library Data.

Wouldn't a simple DNA test confirm that Chirpers are Droyne? How is this even a mystery? I know Droyne have been studied in-universe and so have Chirpers. Can't study and Ancient, because, well, good luck with that! lol! Has no one ever done a DNA test?

DNA isn't that simple, even for Terrestrial creatures. A test would confirm that they're closely related, but it might also be somewhat altered by the casting process. And a DNA test may not rule out the Droyne being uplifted Chirpers. Or being varieties of each other, like Zhodani and Vilani.

"The semi-intelligent animals known as Chirpers have been confirmed to share almost identical DNA with Droyne, but are clearly a lesser race of the same lineage."

It also should be pointed out that unless they're clones, the DNA of individuals WILL vary within even the same population. For a population of Droyne that's been a separate breeding pool from a population of Chirpers for hundreds of thousands of years, you would expect enough difference that comparing the samples would not prove anything other than the two are closely related.

"Our samples show a 98% correspondence, indicating a common origin"

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Only if humans understanding of genetics hasn't advanced in several thousand years to the point where humans can genetically modify living creatures in basically any way they choose.

Human understanding of EARTHLY genetics not various types of alien genetics.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Don't be disingenuous. It does not become you and makes you look foolish.

There are usually entire sections labelled Referee's Notes. MegaTraveller even had a section that was a commentary on the public Library Data.

Every time I mention looking for concrete factual information for the OTU I have almost everyone on these boards telling me that there is no such thing, only in-universe perspectives. Now you are telling me that everyone else was lying to me? I guess I do look foolish for trusting that you guys know what you are talking about.

DNA isn't that simple, even for Terrestrial creatures. A test would confirm that they're closely related, but it might also be somewhat altered by the casting process. And a DNA test may not rule out the Droyne being uplifted Chirpers. Or being varieties of each other, like Zhodani and Vilani.

It may not be that simple at TL-8, but how about TL-15?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Human understanding of EARTHLY genetics not various types of alien genetics.

Terran Humans in Traveller have been studying non-earthly genetics since the Interstellar Wars. That is several thousand years of study. The Vilani, which are a human, have been studying alien genetics for even longer.