collins355
Emperor Mongoose
Tom Harris was one of the principals at the old GDW...
If you ever wanted to know the origins of the concept for the Aslan...
- Thread starter collins355
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Sengoku.
collins355
Emperor Mongoose
This one, I suspect.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
The date is 1991, so they were Hivers by then, unless I am suffering from yet another Mandela Effect.
Old word processors did not have spell check, at least not the ones I could afford. So spelling errors were more common.
Around that time =/- a couple of years, my "printer" was a type writer that displayed a line of text in pixelated LCD if you chose preview mode, and had a serial port.
I used it most for printing out text files of NPC's generated on MegaTraveller 2 Quest for the Ancients.
Amazing stuff (for back then)... Could make 100 NPC's in a day, and then spend the next day babysitting the printer.
Old word processors did not have spell check, at least not the ones I could afford. So spelling errors were more common.
Around that time =/- a couple of years, my "printer" was a type writer that displayed a line of text in pixelated LCD if you chose preview mode, and had a serial port.
I used it most for printing out text files of NPC's generated on MegaTraveller 2 Quest for the Ancients.
Amazing stuff (for back then)... Could make 100 NPC's in a day, and then spend the next day babysitting the printer.
I mean, Tom Harris' credentials are solid. He was a playtester for Asteroid (1980) and Striker (1981). If he was part of the greater GDW community around 1975 or so, his anecdote of "a couple of years before Traveller" lines up.
I'd want to see what Frank has said, though. Especially since he is not credited anywhere in regards to development of the Aslan - the original JTAS 7 article is Loren K Wiseman and the Keith brothers; Alien Module 1 is J Andrew Keith, John Harshman and Marc W Miller, with "development by Marc W. Miller".
But if all Frank did contribute was the idea of Samurai, maybe that wasn't much worth a credit. I would also point out that the Shogun TV series was 1980 and Samurai were VERY Much still en vogue in 1981, when Journal 7 came out. Just because Frank referenced samurai some years earlier does not mean that Loren couldn't have used them independently.
I'd want to see what Frank has said, though. Especially since he is not credited anywhere in regards to development of the Aslan - the original JTAS 7 article is Loren K Wiseman and the Keith brothers; Alien Module 1 is J Andrew Keith, John Harshman and Marc W Miller, with "development by Marc W. Miller".
But if all Frank did contribute was the idea of Samurai, maybe that wasn't much worth a credit. I would also point out that the Shogun TV series was 1980 and Samurai were VERY Much still en vogue in 1981, when Journal 7 came out. Just because Frank referenced samurai some years earlier does not mean that Loren couldn't have used them independently.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Then we should be lucky that no one came up with the idea of drunken monkey Shaolin monks.
Though exploring Vargr military organization, and it's potential complexity, I just did have a thought about having a go at doing trope human nature and projecting a simplified version into uplifted monkeys.
Though exploring Vargr military organization, and it's potential complexity, I just did have a thought about having a go at doing trope human nature and projecting a simplified version into uplifted monkeys.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
I would be interested in hearing you elaborate on that point.
That is what the Tavrchedl' want you to think...
I'll answer cautiously, leaving out some of the elements because I don't want to risk seeming offensive about a culture that we Scots have not helped that much down through the years!
Things like the Maori practise of conflict resolution by challenges, duels and even small scale conflicts fought under strictly laid-out, quite scientific rules. You can't make sweeping statements about an entire culture across all of its history but for a long time you could end up with a disagreement settled by an Aslan-style duel with strict rules on when to stop, intended to prevent a warrior culture like that of the Maori devouring itself (no pun intended). Combat would immediately cease when a combatant was wounded, even if it was only a minor flesh wound.
Instead of fteir, wars could be fought for the mana of individuals or tribes (clans), or for utu (because of dshonour or disrespect.
The complex tribal structure with independent tribes seen by the outside world as a single people, geographically mixed together in sometimes non-contiguous patterns of ownership is quite like the Hierate.
There is more, but I am not an anthropologist nor a New Zealander. On the sounds of the words, there is a similarity to my ear, although you may disagree! Maori place names like Wairoa, Aoraki or Whakaari could be systems in the Trojan Reach. Elements of place names sound like Aslan words, too: awa for river, hau for wind etc. And descriptive compound names as in Trokh are common (most infamously in Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu).
You can probably do some of this with other Pacific Islanders, too. But the famous Maori warrior culture seems an obvious stand-out to me, at least.
Yatima
Cosmic Mongoose
I think Larry Niven's Kzinti are the elephant in the room, here. Same can be said for his Pierson's Puppeteers as the archetype for the manipulative Hivers. I know this has been denied down the years, but it's incredible if these widely-known literary aliens did not influence these specific Traveller aliens in a major way.
I'm sure that "hey, violent cat-men" in one of its iterations was a factor, yeah. But there is a huge amount more to them than those three words.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
After a cursory internet search, some thoughts:
Larry Niven introduced the Kzinti in 1966 in the story "The Warriors".
C.J. Cherryh introduced the Hani in 1981.
GDW introduced the Aslan in 1980/81 (Library Data A-M) or earlier since there's probably earlier mention of them which was then included in Library Data. Aslan gender roles were described here.
GDW published the Aslan Alien Module 1 in 1984.
The Aslan were not mentioned in Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches, 1979.
So, I'm going with a Kzinti and terrestrial lions inspiration. The only people who really know are the writers who developed them, as described by the original post. I do wonder why they chose lions for a Japanese analog though. Why lions and not an animal indigenous to Japan?
This is what it seems like to me:
Larry Niven introduced the Kzinti in 1966 in the story "The Warriors".
C.J. Cherryh introduced the Hani in 1981.
GDW introduced the Aslan in 1980/81 (Library Data A-M) or earlier since there's probably earlier mention of them which was then included in Library Data. Aslan gender roles were described here.
GDW published the Aslan Alien Module 1 in 1984.
The Aslan were not mentioned in Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches, 1979.
So, I'm going with a Kzinti and terrestrial lions inspiration. The only people who really know are the writers who developed them, as described by the original post. I do wonder why they chose lions for a Japanese analog though. Why lions and not an animal indigenous to Japan?
This is what it seems like to me:
- The Kzinti were the primary inspiration: Feline, lionlike, physically large, warlike, patriarchal, feudal, preoccupied with honor, technologically advanced, with three fingered hands.
- Terrestrial lions were the secondary inspiration: Males fight other lions and other animals, females hunt and do other "work". In typical wild prides, 37% of the lions in a pride are male, the rest having died or been exiled from the pride before growing to adulthood. This result is close to the Aslan ratio of 1 male per 3 females.
- Hani society was matriarchal, because the great majority Hani males were violent to the point of being nonfunctional in a civilized environment. Very few Hani males ever left their homeworld, and very few even became involved in the world around them.
- Hani females were physically smaller than humans.
- C.J. Cherryh stated that Hani society was gender commentary. GDW chose different but complimentary and equally respectable roles for male and female Aslan.
Last edited:
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Ironically, I would say the Pierson's Puppeteers were actually "split" into two races as inspiration: the Hivers and the K'kree.
- The Hivers being the "Curious" and "Insane/Inscrutable" High-TL manipulators who deal with and use others as pawns at a distance for their own purposes
- The K'kree as the "Uncurious" and "Sane" Herbivore/Herd Culture that distances itself from alien cultures and does whatever is necessary to preserve itself or engender right behavior in neighbors and trading partners who are considered "safe" ( - Unless of course they are at war, in which case the Hivers are the sane ones using surrogate fighters and the K'kree Warriors are the Insane . . . )
Of course, Kzinti females are non sentient. The actual behavior of Kzinti males is nothing like the Aslan.
The Aslan are neither the Kzinti nor the Hani, but they are much farther from the Kzinti than from the Hani in terms of how their society works.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Flash Gordon does appear to have Lion Men.
collins355
Emperor Mongoose
Marc Miller: There have been some excellent analyses of the literary antecedents of Traveller, and they go into far more detail than I can provide here, but let me tell you just a few inspirations that I can recall off the top of my head. And I recommend, if you have not read these authors, to make a point of doing so: Larry Niven and his Known Space stories. Poul Anderson and his Flandry of Terra series. All of Isaac Asimov’s Foundation series. And the quintessential Traeveller: E. C. Tubb’s Dumarest of Terra.
stargazersworld.com
Interview with Marc Miller – Stargazer's World
stargazersworld.com
Yes? I've read all those too. Other than both being vaguely cat like, the Aslan don't act like the Kzinti.
But I guess I don't understand what's being argued here. If you are saying there are useful insights into the Aslan to be gained from the Kzinti, I'd say "hell no". If you just mean "I bet they thought a cat person might be cool after reading about the Kzinti", I guess sure, maybe.
It is a consistent problem with Traveller that freelance authors keep using the Kzinti as a reference when they do new stuff with the Aslan. It's part of why they keep getting bigger. It's probably why the Glorious Empire has stupid comments about Aslan eating humans (when they can't digest Terran foods without chemical treatments).
The Aslan are not as big as the Kzinti, they don't behave like the Kzinti, they don't have the same social structures as the Kzinti, there's essentially nothing in common except "kind of cat like alien".
But I guess I don't understand what's being argued here. If you are saying there are useful insights into the Aslan to be gained from the Kzinti, I'd say "hell no". If you just mean "I bet they thought a cat person might be cool after reading about the Kzinti", I guess sure, maybe.
It is a consistent problem with Traveller that freelance authors keep using the Kzinti as a reference when they do new stuff with the Aslan. It's part of why they keep getting bigger. It's probably why the Glorious Empire has stupid comments about Aslan eating humans (when they can't digest Terran foods without chemical treatments).
The Aslan are not as big as the Kzinti, they don't behave like the Kzinti, they don't have the same social structures as the Kzinti, there's essentially nothing in common except "kind of cat like alien".
