If you could change just one thing about the new Traveller..
- Thread starter TrippyHippy
- Start date
DaltonCalford
Mongoose
Well,
I always thought that the UPP was missing alot of things for game play.
I was hoping that some of them would become part of the new standard.
For example, most players would do their best to get tested for PSI even given how hard it was to get it in the OTU.
Also, the classic rules just assumed that you would understand a TL 15 computer if you had computer skill, even if you came from a TL 7 world.
I always believed that an attribute, much like charisma, but based more on the characters attitude was needed - lets call it bearing for lack of a better term.
Given those attributes, I would say that a new UPP would be called for
STR-DEX-END INT-BER-PSI SOC-EDU-TL
So all the physical attributes are together, then the mental, followed by the cultural
An example UPP would be
Miles Conrad 777 777 777
It would be different from the existing rules but for old time players, we have seen UPP's that had new or different attributes in different positions depending upon the alien race or version of the game. Old timers can adapt while new players should have no problem with the new layout that is alot more comprehensive.
When it comes to those who have not been tested, I would say that PSI should be tested, but training should be rare.
Use PSI as a luck style roll for those circumstances where nothing but luck would have saved you, like avoiding a trap etc.
Just my 2c
best regards
Dalton
I always thought that the UPP was missing alot of things for game play.
I was hoping that some of them would become part of the new standard.
For example, most players would do their best to get tested for PSI even given how hard it was to get it in the OTU.
Also, the classic rules just assumed that you would understand a TL 15 computer if you had computer skill, even if you came from a TL 7 world.
I always believed that an attribute, much like charisma, but based more on the characters attitude was needed - lets call it bearing for lack of a better term.
Given those attributes, I would say that a new UPP would be called for
STR-DEX-END INT-BER-PSI SOC-EDU-TL
So all the physical attributes are together, then the mental, followed by the cultural
An example UPP would be
Miles Conrad 777 777 777
It would be different from the existing rules but for old time players, we have seen UPP's that had new or different attributes in different positions depending upon the alien race or version of the game. Old timers can adapt while new players should have no problem with the new layout that is alot more comprehensive.
When it comes to those who have not been tested, I would say that PSI should be tested, but training should be rare.
Use PSI as a luck style roll for those circumstances where nothing but luck would have saved you, like avoiding a trap etc.
Just my 2c
best regards
Dalton
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
Nice idea...DaltonCalford said:
My thoughts. Psi should be a GM rolled secret stat otherwise players could easily be abused wanting to use their 'psi abilities' that they think they should have with a high Psi stat.
TL... that should come from the TL of the character's homeworld. So, rolling a random homeworld gives you the TL, or you can roll the TL and use that as part of selecting the characters homeworld. They just need to be tied together.
I don't know if we need a charisma/bearing. In CT, Social Standing is HUGELY important and has a great affect on how people perceive you. Instead of 'codifying' a charisma rating, let it be how the player portrays the character modified by their social standing (hence encouraging the RP part, but not having it be totally RP so that the people who just aren't charismatic in r/l aren't punished in the game).
my 2 cp
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Actually, the rules as written give you the option of adding any extra attributes you want, and given skills are not tied to attributes you can slot them in however you want.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
Yeah, I never quite was comfortable with SOC-but maybe I'm too left coast American. That said, what I settled on was the British in Asia model....
[enter five well dressed, clean civilized local citizens uncomfortably carrying shovels]
[civilized native merchant] "that smelly foreign fool wants us to dig up our graveyard...."
[civilized native Army officer] "Well, that smelly barbarian says he is a duke, but more importantly, there is a smelly barbarian battleship in the harbor. "
[civilized local priest]"Should we then humor him ?"
[Civilized native mayor] "Perhaps, at least until he leaves"
[civilized native police official]"yes, and unfortunately we should also not kill or imprison him as his behavior surely deserves."
[lord Haw Haw] {in Galanglic}"Ho ho joey boys, less chat chat and more digging ! chop chop makeee workee muchee fasteee !!!!"
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
I'm toying with the idea that SOC could just stand for Social, as in social skills, rather than standing.
As it is SOC's not much use in none OTU settings, like Dredd or SD (possibly relevant to SST though)
As it is SOC's not much use in none OTU settings, like Dredd or SD (possibly relevant to SST though)
DaltonCalford
Mongoose
If you look at Firefly/Serenity, the characters social status is very important, but their bearing is also very important.
When it comes to leading men into battle, they would be more likely to follow a natural leader vs a well heeled spoiled brat.
The reason I say bearing is that when it comes to looks, the physical attributes are a greater influence as healthier individuals appear more attractive then un-healthy individuals and physical appearance is irrelevant if you are not of the same species.
As to PSI, as the players can eventually have it tested anyways, it is better to have them roll it at the start of play, with it being reduced in strength for every term before training takes place. That keeps the existing mechanics, but keeps everything up front and handled in the same manner.
With TL, I always assumed that since many versions of traveller already do their best to figure out what your home world was like, recording it's TL was a simple matter. I also used JoAT as a way to cancel out some of the penalties due to the fact that I viewed characters with JoAT as being renaissance men type of characters.
The expanded UPP would handle most of the OTU races without a problem and without any changes.
I would see it as a marked improvement to the system, and given that I have been playing traveller since the late seventies, you could call me an old grognard.
best regards
Dalton
When it comes to leading men into battle, they would be more likely to follow a natural leader vs a well heeled spoiled brat.
The reason I say bearing is that when it comes to looks, the physical attributes are a greater influence as healthier individuals appear more attractive then un-healthy individuals and physical appearance is irrelevant if you are not of the same species.
As to PSI, as the players can eventually have it tested anyways, it is better to have them roll it at the start of play, with it being reduced in strength for every term before training takes place. That keeps the existing mechanics, but keeps everything up front and handled in the same manner.
With TL, I always assumed that since many versions of traveller already do their best to figure out what your home world was like, recording it's TL was a simple matter. I also used JoAT as a way to cancel out some of the penalties due to the fact that I viewed characters with JoAT as being renaissance men type of characters.
The expanded UPP would handle most of the OTU races without a problem and without any changes.
I would see it as a marked improvement to the system, and given that I have been playing traveller since the late seventies, you could call me an old grognard.
best regards
Dalton
SableWyvern
Mongoose
I am very much opposed to the idea that using higher level tech is innately harder -- this should be left as a judgement call, as it is all but impossible to create a simple, consistent rule for this which will actually model reality.
For example, which is harder:
Starting a fire with a fire bow or flint and steel vs using a cigarette lighter or a box of matches?
Using DOS to find and run a programme vs telling a computer what you want it to do in plain, spoken language?
Driving a manual car vs an automatic transmission?
In each of these instances, the more advanced tech is significantly, objectively simpler.
For example, which is harder:
Starting a fire with a fire bow or flint and steel vs using a cigarette lighter or a box of matches?
Using DOS to find and run a programme vs telling a computer what you want it to do in plain, spoken language?
Driving a manual car vs an automatic transmission?
In each of these instances, the more advanced tech is significantly, objectively simpler.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
High tech stuff is easier to use, but harder to understand and troubleshoot. So, while using that lighter is much easier than a flint and steel, figuring out how to make it work when it fails to light can be a bit trickier.
Personally, I would let USE of higher Tech items happen all the time, but repair and troubleshooting becomes tied to TL of knowledge.
Personally, I would let USE of higher Tech items happen all the time, but repair and troubleshooting becomes tied to TL of knowledge.
DaltonCalford
Mongoose
When I suggested tying TL to a character, I never specified that higher TL is harder, just different TL is harder.
So if you are used to a microwave and cigarette lighter, go start a fire in the woods and cook your food with only the materials you find there........
When you grow up in a particular TL, you make basic assumptions that do not apply to the situation. My father, who was in business for decades, makes statements about how things should work now, but they don't because the environment has changed due to technology. Most of the higher level technologies are invisible to the end user. Many times I see shows talking about someone cutting short their phone call in order to prevent the police from tracing it. Truth is, the call was fully traced the moment the last button was pushed on the dial. The only speed issue depends upon how closely tied the police agency is to the phone provider as they could have the information immediately if they are part of the SS7 network.
Someone who is used to a horse and buggy would have a hard time picking up how to drive a car, and close to an impossible time learning how to fly a helicopter. What we consider easy is hard for someone who does not even understand the idea of what a ignition is or that there are lights to turn on in a car for when it is dark.
It is the basic assumptions of TL that would give penalties, but with training and JoAT you can adapt.
I use a flat -1 per two TL of difference with JoAT reducing the penalty on a one for one basis.
best regards
Dalton
So if you are used to a microwave and cigarette lighter, go start a fire in the woods and cook your food with only the materials you find there........
When you grow up in a particular TL, you make basic assumptions that do not apply to the situation. My father, who was in business for decades, makes statements about how things should work now, but they don't because the environment has changed due to technology. Most of the higher level technologies are invisible to the end user. Many times I see shows talking about someone cutting short their phone call in order to prevent the police from tracing it. Truth is, the call was fully traced the moment the last button was pushed on the dial. The only speed issue depends upon how closely tied the police agency is to the phone provider as they could have the information immediately if they are part of the SS7 network.
Someone who is used to a horse and buggy would have a hard time picking up how to drive a car, and close to an impossible time learning how to fly a helicopter. What we consider easy is hard for someone who does not even understand the idea of what a ignition is or that there are lights to turn on in a car for when it is dark.
It is the basic assumptions of TL that would give penalties, but with training and JoAT you can adapt.
I use a flat -1 per two TL of difference with JoAT reducing the penalty on a one for one basis.
best regards
Dalton
SableWyvern
Mongoose
DaltonCalford said:
That's fairly reasonable as a broad guideline, but I'm still not sure I'd like to see it formalised. Primitive man may see a cigarette lighter as nothing more than a strange shiny thing, but once he is shown it's function, or stumbles across it, he won't have difficulty using it (superstitions aside). Conversely, an Imperial Marine trained to use FGMP-15s, gauss rifles and meson guns isn't going to take long to work out how to use a revolver from Terra circa 1880, even if he's never been exposed to chemically propelled munitions.
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
Charisma always sounded vaguely fantasy rather than sci-fi to me, and Bearing sounds a bit to much like Social Standing.
Empathy would be better, as in "Is this to be an Empathy test, Mr Deckard?...."
Empathy would be better, as in "Is this to be an Empathy test, Mr Deckard?...."
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Just to argue the other side for a minute, in the Imperial setting, TL of the world does NOT mean that is all they able to understand or that they have ever used, only what they usually use. TL is production, not knowledge.
EVERYONE knows about Contra Gravity. They may not be able to build it, or may never have seen an Air Raft, but they DO know that Contra Gravity exists, even if they live on a TL 2 world. They are NOT Iron Age barbarians (usually), they just live on a planet that can't make those things. They are not savages, just poor.
Also, take that 18 year old Barbarian who has never seen a flush toilet and spend a dozen years teaching him how to use an FGMP and Battle Dress and see what his assumptions are after that. Your career should have an affect on your comfortable tech level.
A character raised on a mid-Tech world, but who spent 20 years in the Imperial Navy is not going to be unfamiliar with starships and computers.
EVERYONE knows about Contra Gravity. They may not be able to build it, or may never have seen an Air Raft, but they DO know that Contra Gravity exists, even if they live on a TL 2 world. They are NOT Iron Age barbarians (usually), they just live on a planet that can't make those things. They are not savages, just poor.
Also, take that 18 year old Barbarian who has never seen a flush toilet and spend a dozen years teaching him how to use an FGMP and Battle Dress and see what his assumptions are after that. Your career should have an affect on your comfortable tech level.
A character raised on a mid-Tech world, but who spent 20 years in the Imperial Navy is not going to be unfamiliar with starships and computers.
SableWyvern
Mongoose
TrippyHippy said:
I would suggest that you associate Charisma with fantasy only because of it's association with D&D.
If you asked a random Australian of sufficient age to succinctly describe their recollections of former Prime Minister Bob Hawke, you'd probably get one of three answers:
Prolific drinker (he held a world record for fastest scull)
No child shall be living in poverty
Charisma
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I think that TL 2 cultures (unless they're uncontacted aliens) are usually not literally barbarians who don't know any principles of science (since science is what got them to that world in the first place) - but they don't necessarily know about contragrav anymore or would recognise it if they see it. It's possible that war etc may have regressed the culture to the point that they've forgotten how to build a lot of tech though (or that some technologies even exist).
In this kind of SF setting you usually have pre-industrial tech levels by deliberate choice or necessity though - all things being equal I think tech levels are going to want to rise to at least industrial levels.
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
SableWyvern said:
Actually, it's more to do with Charisma being non-specific, in terms of measurement. That is, you can actually provide some means of measured test to determine one's Strength, Dexterity, Endurance, Intelligence, Education and Social Standing - but Charisma isn't measureable, in any easily defined way. A creature's ability to socially empathise with others members of the same species could be, however. On the other hand, maybe Psi already represents this to a degree.
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