Idea to replace halving mechanic

nennafir

Mongoose
After some thought (and looking at other people's ideas) here's my idea to replace the halving mechanic. I freely give it up and assign all copyright and ownership of it to Mongoose. 8)

RULE: In any skill test (opposed or not, in combat or not) you have the option (if your skill is over 100) of subtracting 100 from your skill and giving yourself one extra free re-roll (of your own die roll). This ability is cumulative and can be applied multiple times if your skill is high enough that 100 can be subtracted from it multiple times. That is, if your skill is over 200 you have the option of either keeping the skill at 200 and rolling once, reducing it by 100 and getting one extra re-roll, or reducing it by 200 and getting 2 extra re-rolls.

CLARIFICATIONS: (1) If you have any re-rolls left and are making your roll, you can either keep your existing roll or decide to use up one of your re-rolls and replace your existing roll with that re-roll. In other words, you can't "go back" and take a previous roll. If you re-roll, you have to accept the results of the re-roll (unless you want to use up another re-roll, if you have one, to change them again.)
(2) In the case of an opposed skill roll, you always have the option (like in, say, poker) of saying "stand" to stand by your existing roll and not using any re-rolls. However, if your opponent rolls or re-rolls at any time after you say stand, you also then get the option of re-rolling. The person initiating the action (i.e., the attacker in a combat situation) is always the person who has to "bid first" and say "stand" first. In the event where neither initiated the action (say a contest where both are forced by some outside party to contest their singing skills) he person with the lower ORIGINAL (before we started subtracting 100's from the skill rolls) skill roll is the one at a disadvantage who has to roll first and say "stand" first. I will try to clarify this in the examples. But just think poker, where the aggressor/initiator or (in the event no one initiated it) the lower original score always has to bid first.

EXAMPLES:

Example 1: Crogthor wants to drive his chariot home in weather that is tricky enough that the GM decides he needs to roll against his driving skill of 146. He has the option of reducing his score by 100 to get a reroll, but decides not to. He rolls 85, a success, and drives his chariot.

Example 2: Kimberly wants to sing to impress her new employers. Her sing skill is 265. She could just not reduce her skill at all and leave things as is and have a 95% chance of success (anything less than or equal to 95 is not a failure.) However, she wants really to impress them and so wants a critical success. She knows that unless she gets a critical, they will soon be firing her and employing her rival Bimkerly. So she reduces her skill by 100 and gets 1 extra re-roll. So her new skill is 165 and she has one re-roll. Since her new skill is 165 and 10% of this is 16 (rounded down) she gets a critical if she rolls less than 16. Note that this does actually increase her chance of a critical from if she had left it at 265. This is because if her skill was 265 she would have a 26% chance of getting a critical but with one re-roll available her chance of a critical now is .16 + (.84)(.16) = .2944 or 29%.

Her first roll is a 46, a success but not a ciritical. She opts to use a re-roll.
Her second roll is 15, a critical success. Her emplyers are amazed.

Example 3: Bob needs to pilot his boat on a stormy sea. His boat skill is 270. The GM rules that the sea is particularly stormy and so he gets a 20% penalty, making his effective skill 250. He opts (perhaps unwisely, as he doesn't need a critical and probably should only have reduced his skill once) to reduce his skill by 200 to get 2 free re-rolls. So his skill is 50 and he gets 2 free re-rolls.

His first roll is 76, a failure. He opts to use a re-roll.
His second roll is 46, a success but not a ciritical. He didn't need a critical and so could stop here and successfully pilot the boat. He should stop here and not use any more re-rolls. He foolishly decides that he wants a critical success though and opts to use his last re-roll.
His third roll is 85, a failure. He fails at the task and his boat capsizes. Note that he can't "go back" to his previous successful roll.

Example 4: Jane has a skill of 20 in perception and Joe has a Stealth of 140. Joe wants to sneak by Jane. He opts not to use any re-rolls at all and not to reduce his skill.
Jane rolls a 25, a failure.
Joe rolls an 84, a success. Joe sneaks by Jane.

Example 5: Hydra has a 2H Axe skill of 380 and Morgrom has a Dodge of 450. They are attacking each other. Hydra opts to take 200 off his skill to make it 180 with 2 re-rolls. Morgrom takes 400 off his skill and makes it 50 with 4 re-rolls.

Hydra is the attacker so he has to say stand first.

At first, Hydra rolls a 78, a success, and says "stand". He could continue on and try for a critical but doesn't.

Morgrom rolls a 40, a success and says "stand".

Since Morgrom rolled after Hydra (the initiator rolled first) Hydra has the option of using one of his re-rolls and rolling again now. However, he is happy with the result (for some reason) and lets it go as is.

It proceeds to the effect of "attack succeeds but inflicts minimum damage; defender forced to give ground."

Example 6: Hydra attacks Morgrom again with the same setup as before.

Hydra rolls a 97, a failure. He opts to use one of his re-rolls and gets a 57, a success. He says "stand".

Morgrom rolls to dodge and gets a 60, a failure. He opts to re-roll and gets a 76, another failure. He opts to re-roll again and gets a 43, a success. He says "stand".

Since Morgrom was rolling all of this after Hydra, Hyrda has the option of re-rolling now and this time decides to. So hydra uses one of his re-rolls and gets a 34. This is the same setup as previously (both succeed) and Hydra wants to re-roll again. He rolls a 17, a critical success. He says "stand" He has used all of his re-rolls.

Morgrom says "eek, you got a critical!" He could stand as it but decides to re-roll to try get a (extremely unlikely, since his modified skill is 50 and so he only gets a critical success on 5 or less) critical. He rolls 34, a success. He opts to use his last re-roll and rolls again for a 65, a failure. He has no re-rolls left. He says "stand".

The final result was Hydra getting a critical and Morgrom failing.

DISCUSSION:

Why do I like this?

(1) It means someone with a skill over 100 always has the advantage over someone with a skill less than 100, as they can always choose not to reduced their skill at all and have no re-rolls.

(2) It means that people with epic level skills where both have skill over 300 can opt to reduce their skills to get re-rolls if they like.

(3) Arguably even halving is "difficult math" for some people (not me, I'm just saying this.) But anyone can subtract 100 and most people have played poker.

(4) I think the poker "stand" dynamic adds a little drama to higher level matches where both people have high skills. I mean 8) people do watch Texas Hold-Em on ESPN so it is at least sort of interesting to watch.

(5) It is a UNIFORM SYSTEM that applies to all types of skill rolls: opposed, in combat, out of combat, etc. I think this uniformity is nice. It makes it more aesthetically pleasing to me that everything is treated the same.

CONCLUDING NOTES:

This might be too much for them to put in patch notes. I at least encourage them to put it in their legendary book though. I think the current halving system it just too broken. I like this one for its uniformity and ease of use, as well as the drama it adds.

EDIT: If someone has already proposed this or this is the exact system of another game (I seem to recall people saying that another gae had rerolls as well) I apologize for the redundancy.
 
I posted something like this using the "second-chance" rule. It might be alright, but we are sort of concerted about just how much of an advatage it gives the higher skillsed character. Especially in the 106 vs 96 type of situations.
 
In 106 vs 96, even a "subtract 100 and second chance" rule would fairly badly penalise the 106 person, where they should really be roughly equal, unless they select your "choose not to reroll" option. Plus, there's nothing to stop 2 characters over 100% from from not choosing the option.

After more thought, and reasoning that skills over 100% are supposed to be outstanding anyway, I'm becoming inclined towards saying "the guy under 100 is toast - tough cheese".
 
You know what I'm thinking? Granted, I haven't put this into play yet, but hey.

If you have a skill over 100% in anything you are a badass. If you are over 100% and you are opposed by someone who is not at your badass level, you're probably going to make them look like a schmuck. Even if you do muck-up from time to time, with a skill that high you can probably cover your muck-up with a minimum of effort before anyone notices.

So... when you would normally use the halving rules, don't. Just roll d%. A character with a score over 100% only fails on a fumble result. The rest of the opposed test can be figured out normally.

So... figure a guy with 105% is opposed by a guy with 35%. The 105% rolls an 89; not a fumble, so he succeeds. The 35% guy rolls a 42; he fails. If the 35% guy rolled a 22, he succeeded but the 105% still won because his 89 is greater than 22. If the 105% guy rolled a 00, and the 35% guy rolled a 56, the 105% guy loses because he fumbled (but not because his roll was higher; had he rolled a 91, he would have won because his only loss comes from a fumble.)

Thoughts?
 
My lastest bit of thinking <ouch> has givein me the idea of just letting someone who get's halved, the option of changing his tens digit after the roll.
 
The problem I see is that if you have a 110% you are really no better than someone with a 99%. You would never give up a 95% chance for two 10% chances. Really no one would use this until they were upwards of 170-180%.

I still like my roll and add for every 100% increment method. :D
 
iamtim said:
You know what I'm thinking? Granted, I haven't put this into play yet, but hey.

If you have a skill over 100% in anything you are a badass. If you are over 100% and you are opposed by someone who is not at your badass level, you're probably going to make them look like a schmuck. Even if you do muck-up from time to time, with a skill that high you can probably cover your muck-up with a minimum of effort before anyone notices.

So... when you would normally use the halving rules, don't. Just roll d%. A character with a score over 100% only fails on a fumble result. The rest of the opposed test can be figured out normally.

So... figure a guy with 105% is opposed by a guy with 35%. The 105% rolls an 89; not a fumble, so he succeeds. The 35% guy rolls a 42; he fails. If the 35% guy rolled a 22, he succeeded but the 105% still won because his 89 is greater than 22. If the 105% guy rolled a 00, and the 35% guy rolled a 56, the 105% guy loses because he fumbled (but not because his roll was higher; had he rolled a 91, he would have won because his only loss comes from a fumble.)

Thoughts?

Totally agree - uh with both of you :D ; enough of this nonsense - if you're 100% better than someone/thing - you're 100% better than someone/thing and that's that. Halve this.
 
iamtim said:
You know what I'm thinking? Granted, I haven't put this into play yet, but hey.

If you have a skill over 100% in anything you are a badass. If you are over 100% and you are opposed by someone who is not at your badass level, you're probably going to make them look like a schmuck. Even if you do muck-up from time to time, with a skill that high you can probably cover your muck-up with a minimum of effort before anyone notices.

So... when you would normally use the halving rules, don't. Just roll d%. A character with a score over 100% only fails on a fumble result. The rest of the opposed test can be figured out normally.

So... figure a guy with 105% is opposed by a guy with 35%. The 105% rolls an 89; not a fumble, so he succeeds. The 35% guy rolls a 42; he fails. If the 35% guy rolled a 22, he succeeded but the 105% still won because his 89 is greater than 22. If the 105% guy rolled a 00, and the 35% guy rolled a 56, the 105% guy loses because he fumbled (but not because his roll was higher; had he rolled a 91, he would have won because his only loss comes from a fumble.)

Thoughts?

The only downside is there is not much benefit for being over 100. A 150 vs 60 skill has the same odds as a 100 vs 60.

If you subtract the amount over 100 from bothe rolls (you only do this for the higher skilled if both are over 100) you get 100 vs. 10.

If the skills are 160 vs. 120 you subtract 60 from both for 100 vs. 60.
 
Yup, and unless you fumble, they'll be having to peel the other guy off the wall.

Of course, THE PROBLEM with this (there had to be one) is how to resolve where both are over 100. There needs to be a viable way of reducing down until a meaningful comparison can be made. Highest roll won't work, cos then 325 vs 105 would be broken.
 
The funny thing is...


...this would be so easy to do with the old crit/special/normal success rules.

Just have both roll skill, berst quality wins (crit beats special, etc), if quality is the same, low roll wins.

It's fair, its easy, it gives a advantage to greater skill, it gives the "underdog" a chance, it works.
 
atgxtg said:
The funny thing is...


...this would be so easy to do with the old crit/special/normal success rules.

Just have both roll skill, berst quality wins (crit beats special, etc), if quality is the same, low roll wins.

It's fair, its easy, it gives a advantage to greater skill, it gives the "underdog" a chance, it works.

HERESY!
 
atgxtg said:
My lastest bit of thinking <ouch> has givein me the idea of just letting someone who get's halved, the option of changing his tens digit after the roll.

I'm working on the math for this one (it really, really, hurts though) and it may have a lot of merit.
 
Lord Twig said:
The problem I see is that if you have a 110% you are really no better than someone with a 99%. You would never give up a 95% chance for two 10% chances. Really no one would use this until they were upwards of 170-180%.

So? Someone with 110 really is not much better than somone with 99, so I don't really see a problem here that my system reflects this. The person with 110 is slightly more likely to crit (and definitely won't be giving up 100 for a reroll.)

This will give those epic people something to look forward to: When they actually get high enough in a skill that they can sacrifice some of it to get an extra die.

110 vs. 99 never was a problem in the game. What WAS a problem was:

20 vs. 270, where the halving mechanic was broken. My system gives the 270 person a lot of options. It balances out these extra advantages a little bit by forcing them to stick with what they do re-roll and not letting them go back to a previous roll.

270 all by itself (unopposed roll.) Here you had all that skill and not too many options in how it was used.

350 vs. 540, where the halving mechanic was also IMO broken. It gives both players options and adds a little drama as they play their mini-poker game.
 
Really what we want is an ideal mechanism whereby conflict can be resolved, high skills are accurately reflected, and there's no division required.

Thinking laterally for a minute...

Just because skills are percentile, doesn't mean that dice have to be, eh? It's easy to simulate d200, d300, d400, d500, d600, d800, d1000, d1200 and so on, so why not?
 
GbajiTheDeceiver said:
Really what we want is an ideal mechanism whereby conflict can be resolved, high skills are accurately reflected, and there's no division required.

Thinking laterally for a minute...

Just because skills are percentile, doesn't mean that dice have to be, eh? It's easy to simulate d200, d300, d400, d500, d600, d800, d1000, d1200 and so on, so why not?

When do you roll a d200? When a skill reaches 101? That works out to be pretty much the same as halving.
 
Why not just put a cap on skills of 99%? Then you know exactly how good you are, no doubts. Things like ripostes, shield blocks of arrows, multiple attacks, multiple defense, etc. can be handled with a simple chart as in the Poison Lore skill in SB1, that is, at a certain skill level you can do certain things. Or is it just that the mere sound of 300% sounds too 'cool' to resist? Even games as good as SB5 break down when skills get so high...you get a character who gets half a dozen parries or dodges in a row at 300%! This gets more than heroic, it gets silly, and frankly I was disappointed to even see the possibility of such high skill levels in MRQ, never mind halving rules and such. And I am about ready to call it a bad deal and just stick with what I know works already. :(
 
nennafir said:
Lord Twig said:
The problem I see is that if you have a 110% you are really no better than someone with a 99%. You would never give up a 95% chance for two 10% chances. Really no one would use this until they were upwards of 170-180%.

So? Someone with 110 really is not much better than somone with 99, so I don't really see a problem here that my system reflects this. The person with 110 is slightly more likely to crit (and definitely won't be giving up 100 for a reroll.)

Except that there is no criticals in opposed rolls. Combat doesn't get halved. So the 110% Guy is effectively a 100% guy. THis sort of flattens out the whole skill scores above 100. Basically, since high roll wins, one roll at 100% is statistically better than 5 rolls at 50%.

Making the other guy reroll his success would be nasty though. THat was why I suggested the "second-chance" role/rule.


I'm hoping the "Attacker switches tens die" option works.



BTW, If we did allow for critical in opposed rolls we could alow for a critical to beat a sucess, grid of halving and everything work work fine out to the upper 900s.

For examople Rusk the 120% vs. th 20% guard (sheesh you think after all the times he's go thought his he'd have put an improvement roll into his percetion by now. He really insn't percetive, is he?)


If either roll a critical, they win. If Both roll a critical higher roll wins, if neither roll a critical Rusk will win unless he rolls 96+
 
I think one problem here is that people can view skill scores in two different ways.

Take an example. Rurik (not our Rurik, but the one from RQ2 :) ) has a skill of 75 whereas Cormac has a skill of 25.

Is Rurik 3 times better than Cormac, or is he 50 points better?

To exacerbate it, let's give them both some experience. Now Rurik has 600 and Cormac has 200.

This time, is Rurik still 3 times better than Cormac or is he actually 400 points better?

Depending on how they view it, each person will obviously come up with a different solution. I'm a "3 times better" man, so any mechanism that involves halving doesn't bug me as much as it might bug someone who supports the "x number of points better" view. And unless we find one that supports both, this thing will just go round and round and round.
 
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