I need help with Marauders!
- Thread starter MaxSteiner
- Start date
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
cordas said:
That was sort of my point. I (personally) don't think SST encourages such 'behavior' at all. But people will always try and 'abuse' a system.
Lieutenant Rasczak said:
I dunno, its rather easy to make some increibly cheesy Skinnie forces.... All you need to do is add an orbital bombardment and I will be calling cheese, 100 points for something that has a slightly smaller blast radius but the same damage a peewee (that costs 300points + another 50 for atomic protocols) but has the advantages of being indirect fire so no LOS is needed, OK it does scatter but given its template that shouldn't be an issue as its not going to scatter very far.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
I found that 'cheesy' forces rely too much on everything going to plan!
We tend to play campaigns, and all the players get to vote on sportsmanship and army composition.
When you can end up losing a campaign on such points, it tends to 'encourage' balanced armies Lol!
We tend to play campaigns, and all the players get to vote on sportsmanship and army composition.
When you can end up losing a campaign on such points, it tends to 'encourage' balanced armies Lol!
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
If you were using those tactics purely to beat an opponent, possibly.
But as they were given as advice to 'level the playing field' then no.
A good game idea is to pick each others Army lists.
You soon find out who the 'bad eggs' are.
But as they were given as advice to 'level the playing field' then no.
A good game idea is to pick each others Army lists.
You soon find out who the 'bad eggs' are.
Avenger6 said:
Using one or two of the tips isn't really cheesy but if you pile them all up, and mini / max squads and such to squeeze every advantage then..... The thing is Max was asking for advice against an army that he finds unbeatable, so in those cases all is fair in love and war
MaxSteiner
Mongoose
Woah, either my PC, or the mongoose forums are really acting up today... probably my PC lol, it keeps claiming these pages arent being updated... So in no order, and with little rhyme or reason heres some responses:
Funny people should mention skinnies, I was seriously considering that as an option ( And as the Lt rightly points out, I hate skinnies
).
Taking on board everything that everyones said I think I've identified a couple of key mistakes I've made;
The first big one is galatea's point that there shouldnt be an anhilate vs delay option. This makes alot of sense (And makes me wonder about my copy of the book... or my eyes), since by the end of the battle I was actually shocked that he recieved all of my victory conditions, a 25% bonus and I LOST points fort him having stuff left, Im normally a good looser, but that sucked. The worst thing about losing that battle by 2605 is we were only playing a 2500 point battle...
Secoundly, for some completly unknow reason to me, I've been thinking that the old 2 camo' entrances in both of the opponants table corners and everything tunneling was a bit to cheesy to use on a newish player. However, having to run towards a 5 man squad set up right in the corner with two javelins, two reliant javlins and an ammo dump with the sergant ontop really drilled home the point that fair play has no part in war.
Thirdly, I need to start attaching/screening my assasins/infiltrators a whole lot better, accept that throny tankers are probably better on the balance of things against marauders, and for the love of all that is holy stop taking skinnies for my control bugs!
Funny people should mention skinnies, I was seriously considering that as an option ( And as the Lt rightly points out, I hate skinnies
).Taking on board everything that everyones said I think I've identified a couple of key mistakes I've made;
The first big one is galatea's point that there shouldnt be an anhilate vs delay option. This makes alot of sense (And makes me wonder about my copy of the book... or my eyes), since by the end of the battle I was actually shocked that he recieved all of my victory conditions, a 25% bonus and I LOST points fort him having stuff left, Im normally a good looser, but that sucked. The worst thing about losing that battle by 2605 is we were only playing a 2500 point battle...
Secoundly, for some completly unknow reason to me, I've been thinking that the old 2 camo' entrances in both of the opponants table corners and everything tunneling was a bit to cheesy to use on a newish player. However, having to run towards a 5 man squad set up right in the corner with two javelins, two reliant javlins and an ammo dump with the sergant ontop really drilled home the point that fair play has no part in war.
Thirdly, I need to start attaching/screening my assasins/infiltrators a whole lot better, accept that throny tankers are probably better on the balance of things against marauders, and for the love of all that is holy stop taking skinnies for my control bugs!
MaxSteiner said:
1stly those kind of mistakes always are a real head smacker when you find them out, one of my mates had an equally annoyed ephinay when he actuall read the tough rule for his Shadows and discovered they failed 3 armour saves not 2.
2nd Tactics are tactics, some armies simply don't work if you don't use all their abilities, such as Exosuits, they are supprising vunerable if they stand still, they need to be readying and jump firing around the board to work, even if it could be seen as a cheesy tactic.
3rd sometimes the best thing to bang a nail in is a hammer.... Sometimes you have to take options you don't like to make things work.
cordas said:
I agree with that, especially Exosuits jumping since that is the role they play in the original background material. I'd be surprised if someone told me that was cheesy and I'd hand them the book to read. If someone told me the LAMI were too weak, I'd have them rent the movie. If someone didn't understand the Hopper Bugs and Ripplers I'd point them towards the TV CGI series. And if they still whined, I'd recommend they rent the 2nd movie on their own dime. :twisted:
Everyone has their own style of play. My group mostly plays SST in scenarios instead of head to head bring and battles. Even in scenarios it has become obvious to us that excluding some things really handicaps a player's chance of success. Not jumping with MI, not using air assets, and not tunneling with Bugs are some notables and are also prime components of the unique flavor of Starship Troopers. Without those and other great flavor mechanics, the game would resemble just one of any dull shoot or charge sci-fi skirmish games on the market. :wink:
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
Take out his command structure with hoppers..... works great if he hasn't bought corporals etc..
If it's a big game then go workers and brains. Buy as many brains as possible and bulk the rest out with ten point workers.
Don't reveal the brains or use coordinate until you have multiple units within range of the marauders.. then have three units storm into close combat. What we've found is that even with the marauders heavy weapons, you just can't kill enough workers to stop them, one unit gets into close combat and the marauders are taken apart.
Try hoppers and burrowers..... move to a tunnel entrance and jump out (use coordinate).
Also, open your tunnel entrances under his chicken hawks. For 50 points you can stop a chickenhawk from firing in the first turn and getting in those devastating shots. Do the same to ammo dumps etc.... if he goes for ammo dumps then incapacitate them by putting them in a hole.
(Chickenhawk in/behind a size 4 hole has to jump.... it can't fire if it jumps, so it wastes a turn... might let you get it before it even gets a shot in).
Ripplers..... leave them up there to stop drop capsules. Three units of ripplers will ensure you get to go after he's entered the board, the capsules stay up as targets until the end of the air phase, so you can still rip them to bits. A marauder unit being destroyed in the air can win a game.
As for tankers etc.... one tanker costs 250 points and has a handful of attacks and six hits, or you can have 25 hits worth of workers with 25D10 of attacks between them.
If it's a big game then go workers and brains. Buy as many brains as possible and bulk the rest out with ten point workers.
Don't reveal the brains or use coordinate until you have multiple units within range of the marauders.. then have three units storm into close combat. What we've found is that even with the marauders heavy weapons, you just can't kill enough workers to stop them, one unit gets into close combat and the marauders are taken apart.
Try hoppers and burrowers..... move to a tunnel entrance and jump out (use coordinate).
Also, open your tunnel entrances under his chicken hawks. For 50 points you can stop a chickenhawk from firing in the first turn and getting in those devastating shots. Do the same to ammo dumps etc.... if he goes for ammo dumps then incapacitate them by putting them in a hole.
(Chickenhawk in/behind a size 4 hole has to jump.... it can't fire if it jumps, so it wastes a turn... might let you get it before it even gets a shot in).
Ripplers..... leave them up there to stop drop capsules. Three units of ripplers will ensure you get to go after he's entered the board, the capsules stay up as targets until the end of the air phase, so you can still rip them to bits. A marauder unit being destroyed in the air can win a game.
As for tankers etc.... one tanker costs 250 points and has a handful of attacks and six hits, or you can have 25 hits worth of workers with 25D10 of attacks between them.
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
Works though...... ever played one of those MI players who always launches a load of blizzard missiles at you every game? Gets to the point that anything above ground in turn one is gone, so you have to tunnel, leaving you being accused of cheesy tactics?
Drop his chickenhawks down holes during setup, for extra nasty, stick an infiltrator nearby.
Serves him right for being cheesy.
Chickenhawks are stuck in turn one, if he doesn't move them the infiltrator can get them.
A big force of workers with good tunnel assets is lethal when used properly.
You can ignore emplacement assets too...... drop ammo dumps and reliants in/behind holes.
Tunneling is how the bugs make up for the MI's advantages (massively flexible, whole force can drop, can always gain the advantage with PL etc...) so you have to use it. It's not cheesy, bitching about it and not coming up with a valid defence other than 'we've banned that in our games' is a bit poor, same with banning rupture, it's in the game to give the bugs a decent ranged weapon. To use it you need to risk a brain bug...... I'll happilly lose an LT if it means I get to take a shot at a brain bug. That can win you the game (free turns actions while the bugs recover on one action). I'd insist he allows rupture back in the game...... without it he loses one of the prime considerations in buying expensive troops, worrying about rupture is part of the game balance. I bet he doesn't like plasma bugs either?
We made a point of playing both sides, nothing banned. Same players win regardless of playing bugs or MI. Taking anything away from either side ruins game balance. We also found that we stopped using nukes, rupture, plasma bugs etc... quite naturally, we found better investments and more sound tactics. Banning them just screws the game up.
And pick on his command models, that's the way to slow up the MI. Easy on multihit models. For the others, assasinate is excellent.
And make sure you know all of the ins and outs of the rules...... watch out for his units starting the game readied (if he has a lower PL he's allowed).
With hoppers.... bring them on as reserves, they arrive on the hop and attack. THat's one action, ready them then use coordinate and go again. One unit of hoppers can rip a fairly big hole that way. make sure you use coordinate that way, hoppers rarely get left alone for a second turn of attacks.
One last idea..... try placing a couple of tunnel entrances near the centre line, your hoppers can use it to fall back behind, it's size four cover after all. Lots of players forget to use it like this. It can really mess up an MI player who thought he had an open line of sight. Send in a couple of small worker units during a game, open up a couple of tunnel entrances within 6" of the enemy, you can then come up behind it and charge through with other units. They don't get a shot in as you tunnel up (can't see you for size 4 tunnel) and it doesn't slow you down as you charge through it. Look at tunnel entrances as a size 4 wood for him and clear terrain for you...... really flexible pieces. Lots of sneaky stuff you can use them for.
Drop his chickenhawks down holes during setup, for extra nasty, stick an infiltrator nearby.
Serves him right for being cheesy.
Chickenhawks are stuck in turn one, if he doesn't move them the infiltrator can get them.
A big force of workers with good tunnel assets is lethal when used properly.
You can ignore emplacement assets too...... drop ammo dumps and reliants in/behind holes.
Tunneling is how the bugs make up for the MI's advantages (massively flexible, whole force can drop, can always gain the advantage with PL etc...) so you have to use it. It's not cheesy, bitching about it and not coming up with a valid defence other than 'we've banned that in our games' is a bit poor, same with banning rupture, it's in the game to give the bugs a decent ranged weapon. To use it you need to risk a brain bug...... I'll happilly lose an LT if it means I get to take a shot at a brain bug. That can win you the game (free turns actions while the bugs recover on one action). I'd insist he allows rupture back in the game...... without it he loses one of the prime considerations in buying expensive troops, worrying about rupture is part of the game balance. I bet he doesn't like plasma bugs either?
We made a point of playing both sides, nothing banned. Same players win regardless of playing bugs or MI. Taking anything away from either side ruins game balance. We also found that we stopped using nukes, rupture, plasma bugs etc... quite naturally, we found better investments and more sound tactics. Banning them just screws the game up.
And pick on his command models, that's the way to slow up the MI. Easy on multihit models. For the others, assasinate is excellent.
And make sure you know all of the ins and outs of the rules...... watch out for his units starting the game readied (if he has a lower PL he's allowed).
With hoppers.... bring them on as reserves, they arrive on the hop and attack. THat's one action, ready them then use coordinate and go again. One unit of hoppers can rip a fairly big hole that way. make sure you use coordinate that way, hoppers rarely get left alone for a second turn of attacks.
One last idea..... try placing a couple of tunnel entrances near the centre line, your hoppers can use it to fall back behind, it's size four cover after all. Lots of players forget to use it like this. It can really mess up an MI player who thought he had an open line of sight. Send in a couple of small worker units during a game, open up a couple of tunnel entrances within 6" of the enemy, you can then come up behind it and charge through with other units. They don't get a shot in as you tunnel up (can't see you for size 4 tunnel) and it doesn't slow you down as you charge through it. Look at tunnel entrances as a size 4 wood for him and clear terrain for you...... really flexible pieces. Lots of sneaky stuff you can use them for.
I wasn't aware that Tunnel Entrances worked as terrain like that.... having a size 4 height.... Hmmmmm changes lots of things, some of whcih don't benefit bugs as they will have their movement halved when touching it, or in it (which they will need to be to gain the benefits of not being able to be shot).
MaxSteiner
Mongoose
Wow, thats some indepth advice there Jose!
That tunnel entrance trap is down right devious, clearly the product of an evil genius!
That tunnel entrance trap is down right devious, clearly the product of an evil genius!
cordas said:
We don't play with tunnel entrances as height 4. I'll explain. Size can be abstract for something like boulder fields but distinct objects aren't always neatly categorized. Something to consider is that the size 6 bunker is 6" wide and 4" high. Can we target a size 5 target standing 5" high behind a 4 inch tall bunker? We can shoot over size 2 depressions, crevasses, and rivers..Look at page 30 for an example of a size 2 depression in the picture. So I feel size really comes into play for at least 4-5 mechanics in the game. But size can be used differently. I think negative height sized terrain proves that. Size 1 MI can shoot over size 2 crevasses.
1)Movement- Bugs on tunnel entrances are not affected adversely for movement. MI treat it as difficult terrain.
2)LOS obstruction- Take that size 6 bunker or a size 2 crevasse mentioned earlier. A tunnel entrance is size 4 as it has a 4" diameter. It's height and composition is left up to the players. I think this depends on height or declared height at the beginning of the game. We'll use rock formations and make a blanket declaration before a game that little ones are size 2 and big ones size 3 for example.
3)As a target- That same bunker should be +6 to damage with an accurate trait weapon. I believe it gets a size 6 from its width. A tunnel entrance is size 4 for target purposes as it has a 4" diameter.
4) As cover- A tunnel entrance gives +2 to a model touching the template. Touching should include being on the template, since it is difficult, not impassable terrain.
5) height for climbing- See page 30 for picture. A tunnel entrance uses an abstract "touch the template if you want to tunnel" rule. No mention of needing lizard lines, falling damage, or the like, so I don't assume it to be a 4" deep hole. Not that it couldn't be, if modelled or decided by the players.. just that it isn't by default.
I believe a tunnel entrance is size 4 with a 4" diameter for situations 1 & 3 and does not in most cases have a height of 4". In situation 4 if it had a height of 4" then a cover bonus would not matter as there would be no LOS by applying situation 2. Situation 4 and 5 is determined by height that the players agree on. If someone creates a termite mound style tunnel entrance then those situation mechanics would come into play. But if the tunnel entrance is like that of a wolf spider hole entrance then it is not going to be the same. And in a further shift someone could make a 4" deep pit rather than an innocous sinkhole. With the game supplied markers I only assume the innocuous hole that allows cover when in it, unless a terrain feature is specifically modelled otherwise or agreed before play.
While looking into the points above, I've also not been able to find a direct rule that effects the Marauders by placing a tunnel entrance template under them. Initially I would only say it puts them in difficult terrain, with a +2 cover bonus and at risk of attack from tunnelling Arachnids if they don't concentrate on destroying it. The rules for non-tunnellers to enter a tunnel complex are to touch a tunnel entrance. I don't know if this is a voluntary or involuntary action. I'd assume voluntary since the tunnel entrance offers cover. IF the tunnel entrances are declared X" deep, then I'd expect that the Bugs would also have to use a climb/x" to get out of them as it represents height and not whether the ground is clear or difficult.
I'm hoping I missed something and Brain Bug JoseDominguez will elaborate on why the Marauders are dropped into a hole to lose a turn. One could equally argue they are placed 4" up on top of a size 4 termite mound style tunnel entrance with a better LOS across the table. :wink:
Dropping them in a hole is a very cool idea, but given the above I might avoid the ensuing arguments in my games and not do it. :lol:
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
They don't lose a turn when dropped in the hole, but they have to waste one.
A chickenhawk (remember it only works this well on Chickenhawks due to their instability rule) in a size 4 tunnel entrance template can't see out (unless it's PBR breaches the templates edge). So it has to jump, they can't fire on the jump. So you don't get that first turn salvo of perfectly placed chickenhawks.
As for why they aren't on top: it's size four and difficult terrain... that makes it something you move through, not over (Like a rubble field, not a large boulder). If it was size four impassable terrain you could stand on top.
Basically, think of the tunnel marker as a small wood you get to place after everything else is on the board..... opens up lots of possibilities. It's effective even without the threat of bugs coming up out of it.
As for not playing tunnel entrances as size 4.... SST is abstract and size 4 is an abstract value and is meant to be played as such for game balance.
House rules are fine, but in a tournament they'd play them as size four. Some players imagine them as holes, others as termite mounds. We always pictured ruptured earth with big slabs sticking up into the air.
Either way, in game terms size 4 is size four and a bug player can always say 'well my bugs come out of the size 4 mounds I've paid for'.
And the comment on bugs being slowed by tunnel markers from cordas...... don't worry, bugs treat their own entrances as clear ground. It's in the tunelling rules.
But it clearly states that tunnel entrances are size 4, so claim them as such, if you want a house rule that they are actual holes, then go ahead. But by the book they are size 4, abstracted according to the rules. So they block LOS to anything size 4 or smaller behind them. Just be careful when placing inside them, if your models PBR breaches the cover then it's worthless. Better to hide behind a tunnel entrance.
But if I'm playing bugs, then I claim my tunnel entrances as size 4 cover. The rules allow it and our tunnel exits are ruptured earth and mounds anyway. After all, a plasma bug can crawl out of one...... they aint gopher burrows.
Sorry If I'm going on a bit, but I love it when you pull off a tactic that leaves your opponent reaching for his rule book
And you need it when playing the bugs!
Tunnel assets are underplayed, they are so much more than somewhere to hide.
A chickenhawk (remember it only works this well on Chickenhawks due to their instability rule) in a size 4 tunnel entrance template can't see out (unless it's PBR breaches the templates edge). So it has to jump, they can't fire on the jump. So you don't get that first turn salvo of perfectly placed chickenhawks.
As for why they aren't on top: it's size four and difficult terrain... that makes it something you move through, not over (Like a rubble field, not a large boulder). If it was size four impassable terrain you could stand on top.
Basically, think of the tunnel marker as a small wood you get to place after everything else is on the board..... opens up lots of possibilities. It's effective even without the threat of bugs coming up out of it.
As for not playing tunnel entrances as size 4.... SST is abstract and size 4 is an abstract value and is meant to be played as such for game balance.
House rules are fine, but in a tournament they'd play them as size four. Some players imagine them as holes, others as termite mounds. We always pictured ruptured earth with big slabs sticking up into the air.
Either way, in game terms size 4 is size four and a bug player can always say 'well my bugs come out of the size 4 mounds I've paid for'.
And the comment on bugs being slowed by tunnel markers from cordas...... don't worry, bugs treat their own entrances as clear ground. It's in the tunelling rules.
But it clearly states that tunnel entrances are size 4, so claim them as such, if you want a house rule that they are actual holes, then go ahead. But by the book they are size 4, abstracted according to the rules. So they block LOS to anything size 4 or smaller behind them. Just be careful when placing inside them, if your models PBR breaches the cover then it's worthless. Better to hide behind a tunnel entrance.
But if I'm playing bugs, then I claim my tunnel entrances as size 4 cover. The rules allow it and our tunnel exits are ruptured earth and mounds anyway. After all, a plasma bug can crawl out of one...... they aint gopher burrows.
Sorry If I'm going on a bit, but I love it when you pull off a tactic that leaves your opponent reaching for his rule book
And you need it when playing the bugs!
Tunnel assets are underplayed, they are so much more than somewhere to hide.