Hydrans
- Thread starter Phoenix44
- Start date
We will indeed be adding new fleets in 2013, and the Hydrans may well be among them!
According to the State of the Mongoose address, the Lyrans seem ahead of the Hydrans, but the Hydrans may appear in the next supplement.
The one thing I really hope is the ESG is sorted fully for the Lyrans, ie how it interacts with the Hellbores sorted even before the Hydrans come out. A retcon on that would be awkward. The other issue is that Hydrans will give us a big idea as to how fighters are going to be treated in ACTA:SF and that needs to be right - not so that the ACTA system can handle large numbers of fighters, its demonstrated it can do that readily in previous expression, but so that they feel properly SFU without the excesses.
Both the above take time so while I hope the Hydrans turn up with the Lyrans, I expect they might be delayed - or at least the Fusion/carrier and pure hellbore ones. We might get a few Fusion only ships as a nice taster...
I await with anticipation since my SFU motto is 'give me methane or give me suicide hot fusion'
The one thing I really hope is the ESG is sorted fully for the Lyrans, ie how it interacts with the Hellbores sorted even before the Hydrans come out. A retcon on that would be awkward. The other issue is that Hydrans will give us a big idea as to how fighters are going to be treated in ACTA:SF and that needs to be right - not so that the ACTA system can handle large numbers of fighters, its demonstrated it can do that readily in previous expression, but so that they feel properly SFU without the excesses.
Both the above take time so while I hope the Hydrans turn up with the Lyrans, I expect they might be delayed - or at least the Fusion/carrier and pure hellbore ones. We might get a few Fusion only ships as a nice taster...
I await with anticipation since my SFU motto is 'give me methane or give me suicide hot fusion'
There are a few provisional designs for the Lyrans over in this corner of the ADB BBS.
riftsinger
Mongoose
well this is my first post and i was going to wait untill i got the minis im getting for xmass , but ive just been hanging around the sfb website and came across the the cad's for the lyrans ships and i am now looking forward to seeing that race coming out . Ive all ways liked the idea of their ships but frankly the models never looked right too bland, these do not i look forward to buying and painting them http://www.starfleetgames.com/Starline%202500%20Lyran.shtml
ps merry xmass from riftsinger
ps merry xmass from riftsinger
Some experimental homebrew stats for the Hydrans, and a sample ship...
Fusion Beams Multihit d6, range 9”, Killzone 3”, Cooldown
Cooldown – may not fire in two successive turns.
Hellbores Range 24”. Accurate +1, Multihit 2, Killzone 8”, Reload. Implosion
Implosion weapons ignore Klingon shield doubling, do not bypass shields on a roll of ‘6’ but do 50% extra damage to shields. Special case - if the target ship has a shield facing down, for transporter use et.c, half the HB hits are applied as 'hull' hits regardless of the target's facing.
Gatling Phasers Similar to a Phaser – 3, but may shoot four times in the same turn.
Stinger Fighters Are launched and attack as drones. Maximum range is 6”. Each Stinger is destroyed by two drone* or phaser hits in defensive fire. Each ADD factor the target has rolls one dice against each fighter – a ‘5’ or ‘6’ destroys the fighter, ‘1’ runs out of ammo. Tractor beams may engage fighters as they do drones.
Any fighter that survives attacks its target with a multihit 4d6 attack.
If their carrier does not exceed 6” move in the following turn, the surviving fighters can be recovered. After one full turn’s delay, they may be re-launched and attack again.
* Assumes one drone is shot down by the fighter’s gatling.
Hydran initiative +0
Lancer class Destroyer 150 Points (VERY provisional).
Hull 26/9 (13 Hull boxes, x 2)
Shields 18 (Slightly heavier shields than a Klingon F5, which has 16)
Turn 4 (Turn mode B, same as Kzinti DW, likewise Agile).
Craft 1 Shuttle, 4 Stinger fighters
Marines 4 (8 in FedCom, halved).
Traits Agile, Transporter 1, Tractor beam 1, Labs 3
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Phaser –1 18 T 1 Accurate +2, Killzone 8”, Precise
Phaser – 2 12 F 2 Accurate +1, Killzone 4”, Precise
Phaser – G 6 PH 4 Accurate +1, Killzone 2”, Precise
Phaser – G 6 SH 4 Accurate +1, Killzone 2”, Precise
Fusion Beam 9 F 3 Multihit d6, Killzone 3”, Cooldown
Edited to dial back HB lethality a bit.
Fusion Beams Multihit d6, range 9”, Killzone 3”, Cooldown
Cooldown – may not fire in two successive turns.
Hellbores Range 24”. Accurate +1, Multihit 2, Killzone 8”, Reload. Implosion
Implosion weapons ignore Klingon shield doubling, do not bypass shields on a roll of ‘6’ but do 50% extra damage to shields. Special case - if the target ship has a shield facing down, for transporter use et.c, half the HB hits are applied as 'hull' hits regardless of the target's facing.
Gatling Phasers Similar to a Phaser – 3, but may shoot four times in the same turn.
Stinger Fighters Are launched and attack as drones. Maximum range is 6”. Each Stinger is destroyed by two drone* or phaser hits in defensive fire. Each ADD factor the target has rolls one dice against each fighter – a ‘5’ or ‘6’ destroys the fighter, ‘1’ runs out of ammo. Tractor beams may engage fighters as they do drones.
Any fighter that survives attacks its target with a multihit 4d6 attack.
If their carrier does not exceed 6” move in the following turn, the surviving fighters can be recovered. After one full turn’s delay, they may be re-launched and attack again.
* Assumes one drone is shot down by the fighter’s gatling.
Hydran initiative +0
Lancer class Destroyer 150 Points (VERY provisional).
Hull 26/9 (13 Hull boxes, x 2)
Shields 18 (Slightly heavier shields than a Klingon F5, which has 16)
Turn 4 (Turn mode B, same as Kzinti DW, likewise Agile).
Craft 1 Shuttle, 4 Stinger fighters
Marines 4 (8 in FedCom, halved).
Traits Agile, Transporter 1, Tractor beam 1, Labs 3
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Phaser –1 18 T 1 Accurate +2, Killzone 8”, Precise
Phaser – 2 12 F 2 Accurate +1, Killzone 4”, Precise
Phaser – G 6 PH 4 Accurate +1, Killzone 2”, Precise
Phaser – G 6 SH 4 Accurate +1, Killzone 2”, Precise
Fusion Beam 9 F 3 Multihit d6, Killzone 3”, Cooldown
Edited to dial back HB lethality a bit.
I haven't given any thought to HB/ESG interactions yet. I think only the *target* ship's ESGs should be a factor (in SFB, any ESG active between the firer or the target was automatically hit. Can of worms, don't want to go there. EDIT - This feature was deliberately omitted to simplify things in FedCom).
Ben - good point about targets with down shield facings. I'll think about that.
This is still very much a work in progress, and has changed a bit since I posted it.
What do you think about the idea of treating Stingers as manned, re-useable, short-ranged drones? Basically I'm trying to cut down on table clutter and bookkeeping.
Ben - good point about targets with down shield facings. I'll think about that.
This is still very much a work in progress, and has changed a bit since I posted it.
What do you think about the idea of treating Stingers as manned, re-useable, short-ranged drones? Basically I'm trying to cut down on table clutter and bookkeeping.
Depends. EGSs are handled quite differently in SFB and FedCom (and differently again in Klingon Armada).
Having played all three, my PoV is that SFB was complex but balanced, FC is simpler but nerfs HBs, KA is simpler still but OTOH radically nerfs ESGs.
Rather than necessarily follow any one of those, I think ACtA needs something that works well in itself. I've no immediate ideas on what that might be.
Having played all three, my PoV is that SFB was complex but balanced, FC is simpler but nerfs HBs, KA is simpler still but OTOH radically nerfs ESGs.
Rather than necessarily follow any one of those, I think ACtA needs something that works well in itself. I've no immediate ideas on what that might be.
This may be too wordy and complex for ACtA. It's based on the way ESGs work in SFB, *not* FedCom.
ESGs are activated at the start of a ship’s movement. If the ship does not have an ESG capacitor (Middle Years ships) this requires an “Activate ESG!” Special action (automatic, power drain). Ships that do have ESG capacitors do not need an SA to activate them, but require a ‘Reload!’ SA to rearm them after each use. ESGs also suffer from the same Cooldown rule as Fusion Beams, so may not be activated in successive turns in any case.
Place one counter for each active ESG the ship has on the model’s base. Each active ESG initially has four Multihit d6 AD.
The ESGs ‘project’ a circle of energy 3” in radius around the ship. After movement is complete, check that no ESG circles overlap – if they do, each active ESG AD ‘cancels’ one active AD on each overlapping ship until only one ship has active fields (or none have).
Terrain - Asteroids, planets (and Black Holes, et.c) absorb all ESG AD that overlap them at the end of the movement phase, after ESG overlaps with other ESGs have been resolved, causing no damage to themselves and preventing damage to anything else. Dust clouds remove half of all overlapping ESG AD.
Active ESGs attack in one of three ways;
1) When the ship herself is activated in the attack phase
2) When an enemy ship within 3” of her is activated in the attack phase or
3) When she is fired upon by Drones or Hellbores.
When the ship herself is activated in the attack phase, each active ESG rolls 1 d6 for each active AD it has at that point, and this damage is spread as evenly as possible between all units (hostile and friendly) within 3”. Odd damage points are allocated at the smallest units first, at the attacker's choice (Shuttles<fighters<ships in hull point order). This damage takes effect immediately. ESG damage against fighters is halved, so two ESG damage points equal one phaser or drone hit. Two ESG points are required to destoy a shuttle (insert handwavium here. This is to preserve play balance and not render Stingers useless).
When an enemy ship within 3” of her is activated in the attack phase, follow the same procedure as above, but any damage inflicted by the ESG is applied after the enemy ship (and any Drones or fighters from that ship) have made their attack. This represents a successful ‘surge’ attack on the ESG.
Each AD of active ESG field a ship is generating will automatically remove one incoming drone attack die, expending itself in the process. This also applies to drones fired by ships within 3” as part of their attack.
Hellbores fired at a ship generating an active ESG field auto-hit, they do not roll any To-Hit dice. Each HB AD cancels one ESG AD. Any HB AD remaining after the last ESG dice is gone immediately hit the generating ship. Note this is measured from the firing ship to the ESG, not the ship generating the ESG, which may draw the Lyran ship into the HB ships’ Killzone.
If the line of sight between a ship firing Hellbores and her target crosses the 3” radius of an active ESG, the Hellbores will automatically hit that ESG.
I'll leave Web interactions for later...
ESGs are activated at the start of a ship’s movement. If the ship does not have an ESG capacitor (Middle Years ships) this requires an “Activate ESG!” Special action (automatic, power drain). Ships that do have ESG capacitors do not need an SA to activate them, but require a ‘Reload!’ SA to rearm them after each use. ESGs also suffer from the same Cooldown rule as Fusion Beams, so may not be activated in successive turns in any case.
Place one counter for each active ESG the ship has on the model’s base. Each active ESG initially has four Multihit d6 AD.
The ESGs ‘project’ a circle of energy 3” in radius around the ship. After movement is complete, check that no ESG circles overlap – if they do, each active ESG AD ‘cancels’ one active AD on each overlapping ship until only one ship has active fields (or none have).
Terrain - Asteroids, planets (and Black Holes, et.c) absorb all ESG AD that overlap them at the end of the movement phase, after ESG overlaps with other ESGs have been resolved, causing no damage to themselves and preventing damage to anything else. Dust clouds remove half of all overlapping ESG AD.
Active ESGs attack in one of three ways;
1) When the ship herself is activated in the attack phase
2) When an enemy ship within 3” of her is activated in the attack phase or
3) When she is fired upon by Drones or Hellbores.
When the ship herself is activated in the attack phase, each active ESG rolls 1 d6 for each active AD it has at that point, and this damage is spread as evenly as possible between all units (hostile and friendly) within 3”. Odd damage points are allocated at the smallest units first, at the attacker's choice (Shuttles<fighters<ships in hull point order). This damage takes effect immediately. ESG damage against fighters is halved, so two ESG damage points equal one phaser or drone hit. Two ESG points are required to destoy a shuttle (insert handwavium here. This is to preserve play balance and not render Stingers useless).
When an enemy ship within 3” of her is activated in the attack phase, follow the same procedure as above, but any damage inflicted by the ESG is applied after the enemy ship (and any Drones or fighters from that ship) have made their attack. This represents a successful ‘surge’ attack on the ESG.
Each AD of active ESG field a ship is generating will automatically remove one incoming drone attack die, expending itself in the process. This also applies to drones fired by ships within 3” as part of their attack.
Hellbores fired at a ship generating an active ESG field auto-hit, they do not roll any To-Hit dice. Each HB AD cancels one ESG AD. Any HB AD remaining after the last ESG dice is gone immediately hit the generating ship. Note this is measured from the firing ship to the ESG, not the ship generating the ESG, which may draw the Lyran ship into the HB ships’ Killzone.
If the line of sight between a ship firing Hellbores and her target crosses the 3” radius of an active ESG, the Hellbores will automatically hit that ESG.
I'll leave Web interactions for later...
Thoughts on a ACTA simplified version:
Have the following New Traits:
Cool Down (As Slow Loading),
ESG (variable Rating),
ESG Capacitor (both can be lost)
ESGs are activated at the start of a ship’s movement and require a Activate ESG!” Special action (automatic, power drain) if it does not have a ESG Capacitors (or this trait has been lost)
It really seems very complicated at present and I am tring to get my head round what an ESG actually does...........
Could you use a variant of the GEG mechanic and add in the ability to ram?
Could you use the ships base rather than the 3" mechanic - perhaps state that all ships with an ESG should be on a specified base size?
Have the following New Traits:
Cool Down (As Slow Loading),
ESG (variable Rating),
ESG Capacitor (both can be lost)
ESGs are activated at the start of a ship’s movement and require a Activate ESG!” Special action (automatic, power drain) if it does not have a ESG Capacitors (or this trait has been lost)
It really seems very complicated at present and I am tring to get my head round what an ESG actually does...........
Could you use a variant of the GEG mechanic and add in the ability to ram?
Could you use the ships base rather than the 3" mechanic - perhaps state that all ships with an ESG should be on a specified base size?
Actually, TBH all I actually wanted to do here was cobble together some rules for the Hydrans, as per the name of this thread. Frankly I couldn't give a rodent's posterior for the Lyrans.
Oh well. The ESG is indeed an odd thing.
Basically, it creates a sphere of handwav... er, 'energy' that moves with the ship for a limited duration. The original idea was to use it to ram things (without damaging the Lyran ship in the process).
It can protect the ship against drones and fighters to an extent, but the energy field is limited and too many impacts will overwhelm it and spread the damage very thinly over lots of targets.
Hellbores...auto-hit; the ESG acts as a damage sponge for minor attacks, but a damage magnet for major ones.
A full four-ESG ram from a DN or BCH will cripple a lone cruiser, or even a DN, if she takes the full force of it. OTOH a Hydran Ranger class cruiser with a cloud of Stinger fighters around her will take trivial damage while reaching point-blank Fusion beam vapourisation death range.
Oh well. The ESG is indeed an odd thing.
Basically, it creates a sphere of handwav... er, 'energy' that moves with the ship for a limited duration. The original idea was to use it to ram things (without damaging the Lyran ship in the process).
It can protect the ship against drones and fighters to an extent, but the energy field is limited and too many impacts will overwhelm it and spread the damage very thinly over lots of targets.
Hellbores...auto-hit; the ESG acts as a damage sponge for minor attacks, but a damage magnet for major ones.
A full four-ESG ram from a DN or BCH will cripple a lone cruiser, or even a DN, if she takes the full force of it. OTOH a Hydran Ranger class cruiser with a cloud of Stinger fighters around her will take trivial damage while reaching point-blank Fusion beam vapourisation death range.
Sounds like the one element of the ESG could be done by the ESG giving a ship a with one active a ram rating like in Noble Armada with the rating relative to number of ESGs?
so Whats the difference between shields and ESG shielding?
I quite like the direct fire idea for stingers but then I really like the fighter rules from ACTA - be a shame not to have them..........with dogfighting etc
so Whats the difference between shields and ESG shielding?
I quite like the direct fire idea for stingers but then I really like the fighter rules from ACTA - be a shame not to have them..........with dogfighting etc
Extra shielding is just how Klingon Armada treats ESGs. The benefit only applies against HBs and Drones. I'd be delighted with that, but I imagine Lyran fans would not be.
The main differences are 1) HBs auto-hit; 2) ESGs are a major short-term power drain, either right away or to reload; 3) ESGs operate for a limited period and then need to cool down (SFB rules. FC was different).
I haven't been involved with NA, I have no idea how things work there.
Trying to represent Stingers as separate small craft is difficult, since they are *slower* than fast-moving warships. They're just jazzed up shuttles. In the SFU, limited turn rates and multiple firing opportunities during each turn give them a chance. None of that applies in ACtA, meaning either you have to change them out of recognition (they aren't Starfuries) or they're totally easy to avoid.
That said, how to represent non-Hydran fighters in Federation Commander is still an unresolved issue. Fighters in the SFU don't work the way they did in B5, porting them across will be a major challenge.
The main differences are 1) HBs auto-hit; 2) ESGs are a major short-term power drain, either right away or to reload; 3) ESGs operate for a limited period and then need to cool down (SFB rules. FC was different).
I haven't been involved with NA, I have no idea how things work there.
Trying to represent Stingers as separate small craft is difficult, since they are *slower* than fast-moving warships. They're just jazzed up shuttles. In the SFU, limited turn rates and multiple firing opportunities during each turn give them a chance. None of that applies in ACtA, meaning either you have to change them out of recognition (they aren't Starfuries) or they're totally easy to avoid.
That said, how to represent non-Hydran fighters in Federation Commander is still an unresolved issue. Fighters in the SFU don't work the way they did in B5, porting them across will be a major challenge.
Stingers:
Given that they would be SM and if you keep the B5 rules of them firing first and moving after all ships have moved they might be usable?
Ramming rules with an ESG active could be follows:
Give Me R ammi n g S p e e d !
Crew Quality Check: Opposed
A ship attempting to perform a ram may not make anything more than a single 45 o turn when it moves. If its base contacts that of an enemy ship at any point in its movement, a ramming attempt can be made. If the opposing player wishes to avoid the ram, both ships must make an opposed Crew Quality check. A +1 bonus is granted for ships with the Agile trait. If the ramming player does not beat his opponent’s check, then the ram has failed and the ship’s movement continues as normal. Ships adrift are automatcially hit. If he does beat his opponent’s check or if his opponent chooses not to make the check, then the ram is successful. The ramming ship immediately stops its movement as it crashes headlong into the enemy!
All Ramming damage will ignore Shields. The amount of damage a ship takes during a ram is equal to the Ramming Ships ESG trait multiplied by the roll of a dice.
For every full 10 points of damage a ship receives in a ram, it will receive one automatic critical hit, with a Critical Score determined by the roll of a further dice.
I don;t know what happens if two ESG equiped ships try to ram each other?
Given that they would be SM and if you keep the B5 rules of them firing first and moving after all ships have moved they might be usable?
Ramming rules with an ESG active could be follows:
Give Me R ammi n g S p e e d !
Crew Quality Check: Opposed
A ship attempting to perform a ram may not make anything more than a single 45 o turn when it moves. If its base contacts that of an enemy ship at any point in its movement, a ramming attempt can be made. If the opposing player wishes to avoid the ram, both ships must make an opposed Crew Quality check. A +1 bonus is granted for ships with the Agile trait. If the ramming player does not beat his opponent’s check, then the ram has failed and the ship’s movement continues as normal. Ships adrift are automatcially hit. If he does beat his opponent’s check or if his opponent chooses not to make the check, then the ram is successful. The ramming ship immediately stops its movement as it crashes headlong into the enemy!
All Ramming damage will ignore Shields. The amount of damage a ship takes during a ram is equal to the Ramming Ships ESG trait multiplied by the roll of a dice.
For every full 10 points of damage a ship receives in a ram, it will receive one automatic critical hit, with a Critical Score determined by the roll of a further dice.
I don;t know what happens if two ESG equiped ships try to ram each other?
Overlapping ESGs short-circuit and shut each other down. One of the problems for SFB Lyrans is that ESGs are no-ones' friends - they will damage friendly ships, too. That's why the Lyrans were never a major fighter using fleet - one mistake and you have a sky full of components and raucous alien laughter over the subspace radio. (The Lyrans developed the larger and longer - ranged PFs, better suited to independent operations, instead).
Lyran close-formation tactics tended to be a bit fraught, to put it mildly.
As for fighters in ACtA:SF generally, I don't see them as a priority. The Hydrans need them, because they are integral to their fleet, but that's not true of the other empires.
Since the Lyrans are scheduled for next year we'll get to see what Mongoose has in mind for the ESG then. Matt Sprange mentioned back in February that they already had ESG and HB rules in playtest at that time. Given the interactions between the two weapons, they'd have to be developed in parallel.
Hydrans and Stingers in 2014, possibly; or maybe not at all. To be honest, I'd rather they weren't in the game than they get turned into a joke fleet, which IMHO was more or less what happened in FC (I am totally biased, of course).
Lyran close-formation tactics tended to be a bit fraught, to put it mildly.
As for fighters in ACtA:SF generally, I don't see them as a priority. The Hydrans need them, because they are integral to their fleet, but that's not true of the other empires.
Since the Lyrans are scheduled for next year we'll get to see what Mongoose has in mind for the ESG then. Matt Sprange mentioned back in February that they already had ESG and HB rules in playtest at that time. Given the interactions between the two weapons, they'd have to be developed in parallel.
Hydrans and Stingers in 2014, possibly; or maybe not at all. To be honest, I'd rather they weren't in the game than they get turned into a joke fleet, which IMHO was more or less what happened in FC (I am totally biased, of course).
