Hunt for the Bismark

[vitalis6969]

On Dog Fights on the History channel last night they had the Hunt for the Bismark episode on. This led to the shaking of my head at some of the beliefs and decisions of the day.

First, the HMS Hood. I'm hoping some people on the board here can help me out, why was this vessel (fine vessel though she was) the "Pride of the Royal Navy" to quote the show? It was a battlecruiser. Big rifles, little to no armor, high speed. And in an era where naval technology changed pretty quick she was a little long in the tooth by the second world war. The RN had better ships.

For example, the German's Flagship USED to be the Graf Spee, but when it was superceded by more advanced ships it moved down the ol' food chain.

Another thing that made me scratch my head was that MORON of a German Admiral... Crap, that man was an idiot through and through. So was German High Command.

Item 1: The Bismark never ever should have left port without at least four destroyers to escort her or at least light cruisers. And why destroyers you ask? Easy, more AA guns against the old swordfish and the ability to screen the more ponderous battleship. You just don't send your heavies out without screening forces.

Item 2: The Admiral never should have sent the Prince Eugen away after the Bismark was hit the first time from the encounter with the Hood and the King George. They should have run together towards the coast of France, again, safety in numbers. Even if the Prince Eugen ran in the final battle it would have probably split the RN task forces.

I realise this is all hindsight and we can all give the reasons why choices in the battle were historically made, but the moves of the German Admiral were a comedy of blunders that cost thousands of lives.

Just some thoughts.....

-V

 

[chaos0xomega]

I'm hoping some people on the board here can help me out, why was this vessel (fine vessel though she was) the "Pride of the Royal Navy" to quote the show? It was a battlecruiser. Big rifles, little to no armor, high speed. And in an era where naval technology changed pretty quick she was a little long in the tooth by the second world war. The RN had better ships.

This is probably going to be the only part of your post where i agree with you. I have no idea. The Hood was severely outdated, and boasted nothing truly special. Why wasn't the Nelson or Rodney or one of the King George V's the pride of the fleet? They were more advanced and more powerful, I just dont get it.

Another thing that made me scratch my head was that MORON of a German Admiral... Crap, that man was an idiot through and through.

Yeah, the Bismarck's captain was cool though: "I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass."

So was German High Command.

Oh, you mean Adolf Hitler? The man that had complete control over every last aspect of the military and understood absolutely nothing about naval warfare, and in fact never even saw the sea/ocean until he was in his 40's? Yeah, you're right.

The Bismark never ever should have left port without at least four destroyers to escort her or at least light cruisers. And why destroyers you ask? Easy, more AA guns against the old swordfish and the ability to screen the more ponderous battleship. You just don't send your heavies out without screening forces.

You would be right if the Bismarck was a normal Battleship. She was exceptionally fast, and her mission was NOT to engage enemy capital ships. In fact, her mission didn't even involve engaging enemy military vessels. Her mission was commerce raiding. Attacking largely unarmed surface vessels carrying cargo. A Destroyer wouldn't have had the range necessary for such an operation and would have quickly become a liability. Also, the plan was that the Bismarck would remain undetected by enemy intelligence/naval forces(unfortunately Operation Ultra made it impossible), if it brought along Destroyers, then it wouldn't be able to succeed in that. Its a lot easier for a single ship to hide then for a small fleet to hide.

The Admiral never should have sent the Prince Eugen away after the Bismark was hit the first time from the encounter with the Hood and the King George. They should have run together towards the coast of France, again, safety in numbers. Even if the Prince Eugen ran in the final battle it would have probably split the RN task forces.

Germany needed all the naval vessels it could get. The task force that was hunting the Bismarck was made up of 3 Battleships, 2 Carriers, and several smaller ships. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen wouldn't have been able to both hold out. It was far more advantageous for Bismarck to sacrifice herself and allow Prinz Eugen to escape then to allow both to go down. Lets face it. The Bismarck was doomed by that point, the addition of a Heavy Cruiser would have only delayed the inevitable. The Prinz Eugen was to continue further into the atlantic with only a single message from teh admiral, "Good Hunting." My guess is that they hoped that the Prinz Eugen would be able to succeed where the Bismarck had failed.

As for your 'run to France' comment, what do you think they were doing? Bismarck was headed for Brest(a port in France) for repairs. She was badly damaged, leaking oil, and had her speed greatly reduced.

I realise this is all hindsight and we can all give the reasons why choices in the battle were historically made, but the moves of the German Admiral were a comedy of blunders that cost thousands of lives.

Actually, the English navy's blunders cost 2200 lives. They only picked up 110 of teh countless survivors. They though they heard U-boats approaching and fled leaving everyone else to drown.

 

[pbeccas]

I often wondered why the Bismarck put to sea without DD escorts. Maybe the jerries did not have enough to go around?

 

[chaos0xomega]

I often wondered why the Bismarck put to sea without DD escorts. Maybe the jerries did not have enough to go around?

That(I think), and like I said in my (ridiculously long) post, a Destroyer wouldn't have been successful at long range commerce raiding for extended periods of time.

Oh, and on a similar note to that Hood comment before, how is it that after the sinking of the Bismarck the Tirpitz became the most powerful vessel in the Kriegsmarine? Both ships were of the same class, and while I understand that as technology progressed the most recent example of a class of vessels would recieve certain improvements over its predecessors, but how could it be enough to warrant Bismarck being "the most powerful" and the Tirpitz "second best"

 

[vitalis6969]

Yeah, the Bismarck's captain was cool though: "I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass."

yes, very very cool and if he was left in charge who knows what would have happened.

You would be right if the Bismarck was a normal Battleship. She was exceptionally fast, and her mission was NOT to engage enemy capital ships. In fact, her mission didn't even involve engaging enemy military vessels. Her mission was commerce raiding. Attacking largely unarmed surface vessels carrying cargo. A Destroyer wouldn't have had the range necessary for such an operation and would have quickly become a liability. Also, the plan was that the Bismarck would remain undetected by enemy intelligence/naval forces(unfortunately Operation Ultra made it impossible), if it brought along Destroyers, then it wouldn't be able to succeed in that. Its a lot easier for a single ship to hide then for a small fleet to hide.

I know what the mission of the Bismark was, and you still don't send it without escorts. Once the Bismark was in place the escorts can leave but the Bismark wasn't even past Iceland before it was engaged, hence destroyers or light cruisers would have made a significant difference.

Germany needed all the naval vessels it could get. The task force that was hunting the Bismarck was made up of 3 Battleships, 2 Carriers, and several smaller ships. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen wouldn't have been able to both hold out. It was far more advantageous for Bismarck to sacrifice herself and allow Prinz Eugen to escape then to allow both to go down. Lets face it. The Bismarck was doomed by that point, the addition of a Heavy Cruiser would have only delayed the inevitable. The Prinz Eugen was to continue further into the atlantic with only a single message from teh admiral, "Good Hunting." My guess is that they hoped that the Prinz Eugen would be able to succeed where the Bismarck had failed.

In my original post, I already stated we can come up with the reasons why they did what they did as it is historical fact. I'm just stating that they were wrong. As for keeping the Prince Eugen, remember what the admiral wanted to achieve after he lost the RN the first time. He wanted to get as close to the mainland as possible hoping to get under the protection of shore-based aircraft. With escort and the division of RN forces that would have been much more possible as he was almost there already.

The RN never fired again on the Bismark until AFTER the swordfish attacks left her circle-jerking in the water, an escort travelling with the bismark might have held them off, i.e. screening like escorts are supposed to do. If the Admiral wanted to send the Prince Eugen away after the rudder hit, fine, at that point the Bismark was going no where. Getting rid of your only escort before then is just stupid.

As for your 'run to France' comment, what do you think they were doing? Bismarck was headed for Brest(a port in France) for repairs. She was badly damaged, leaking oil, and had her speed greatly reduced.

Read what I wrote, "they" could have made the run to France. I KNOW the Bismark was going to France and the moment that the Admiral sent Prince Eugen away he might as well have scuttled the Bismark.

Actually, the English navy's blunders cost 2200 lives. They only picked up 110 of teh countless survivors. They though they heard U-boats approaching and fled leaving everyone else to drown.

whatever... :roll: Admiral put them into water through stupid mistakes...

-V

 

[vitalis6969]

Oh, and on a similar note to that Hood comment before, how is it that after the sinking of the Bismarck the Tirpitz became the most powerful vessel in the Kriegsmarine? Both ships were of the same class, and while I understand that as technology progressed the most recent example of a class of vessels would recieve certain improvements over its predecessors, but how could it be enough to warrant Bismarck being "the most powerful" and the Tirpitz "second best"

I think history of the ships had a part in this based on what both ships did. Tirpitz sat in a fjord and got bombed repeatedly until she was damaged/destroyed.

Bismark blew the Hood out of the water and led the RN on a "dramatic" chase that culminated in the sinking of a "symbol" of the nazi regime. Much more powerful storytelling.

-V

 

[Scuzzlebutt142]

She was the pride of the RN because she was well known. She did lots of flag vists, so was known around the Empire.

Compared to the Bismarck, she wasn't too bad a ship. Same speed, Guns comparable, and shes 16 years older.

 

[DM]

Hmm, an interesting thread. I don't know where to start

Oh, and on a similar note to that Hood comment before, how is it that after the sinking of the Bismarck the Tirpitz became the most powerful vessel in the Kriegsmarine? Both ships were of the same class, and while I understand that as technology progressed the most recent example of a class of vessels would recieve certain improvements over its predecessors, but how could it be enough to warrant Bismarck being "the most powerful" and the Tirpitz "second best"

Tirpitz was commissioned some time after Bismarck and was not fully worked up when the former was sunk (also she was fitted with some ex-DD torpedo tubes fitted, salvaged rom Narvik so she actually did carry more offensive armament).

I know what the mission of the Bismark was, and you still don't send it without escorts.

Apart from the heavy cruisers the Kriegsmarine didn't have anything with the legs or the seakeeping ability to escort Bismarck effectively. German DDs in particular were notoriously poor seaboats. Look at the performance of the DDs escorting Scharnhorst during the early stages of her last mission for an example, even at close proximity to their operating base.

Actually, the English navy's blunders cost 2200 lives. They only picked up 110 of teh countless survivors. They though they heard U-boats approaching and fled leaving everyone else to drown.

And why is that a "blunder"? If there was a risk of u boat attack no captain worth his salt would stop his ship to pick up survivors, friendly or enemy. Calling that a "blunder" is rather simplistic, as the sinking of Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue in WW1 showed.

I'm hoping some people on the board here can help me out, why was this vessel (fine vessel though she was) the "Pride of the Royal Navy"

Quite simply because she was the biggest and one of the fastest battleships afloat and was extensively used for "PR", overseas visits etc. She also had decent flag facilities. Her faults were recognised but the operational programme during the 1930s meant that she was last in line for refit and modernisation. This was due to take place (IIRC) in 1940 and would have included improvements in armour distribution, secondary armament and upper deck layout along the lines of the refits of Renown, Queen Elizabeth and Valiant (the supplement may include a set of refitted Hood stats)

Hood and Bismarck are fascinating ships in that they are complete opposites in terms of reputation. Hood is, in popular circles, regarded as the rather badly designed gin palace whereas Bismarck is seen as the fantastic "uber battleship" only brought down by overwhelming force. In fact both were, by the standards of the day, rather mediocre designs essentialy born out of the last days of WW1. One of them however was lucky enough to score a 1 in a million hit on her opponent and thus earn a reputation that is rather overblown.

 

[chaos0xomega]

And why is that a "blunder"? If there was a risk of u boat attack no captain worth his salt would stop his ship to pick up survivors, friendly or enemy. Calling that a "blunder" is rather simplistic, as the sinking of Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue in WW1 showed.

I called it a blunder because it turned the thread against Scuzzlebutt, and I didnt know what else to call it. Besides, I thought the rule(that even the Kriegsmarine followed) was that if a ship was picking up survivors you don't attack it. Or was that WW1 before the total submarine warfare thing?

Hood and Bismarck are fascinating ships in that they are complete opposites in terms of reputation. Hood is, in popular circles, regarded as the rather badly designed gin palace whereas Bismarck is seen as the fantastic "uber battleship" only brought down by overwhelming force. In fact both were, by the standards of the day, rather mediocre designs essentialy born out of the last days of WW1. One of them however was lucky enough to score a 1 in a million hit on her opponent and thus earn a reputation that is rather overblown.

Completely agreed. Unfortunately. My German heritage makes me want to argue that Bismarck was in fact superior, but I can't argue with my own (logically formed) opinion and historical truth, can I?

 

[DM]

I called it a blunder because it turned the thread against Scuzzlebutt, and I didnt know what else to call it. Besides, I thought the rule(that even the Kriegsmarine followed) was that if a ship was picking up survivors you don't attack it. Or was that WW1 before the total submarine warfare thing?

A feature of warfare from a byegone age I'm afraid.

 

[vitalis6969]

Apart from the heavy cruisers the Kriegsmarine didn't have anything with the legs or the seakeeping ability to escort Bismarck effectively. German DDs in particular were notoriously poor seaboats. Look at the performance of the DDs escorting Scharnhorst during the early stages of her last mission for an example, even at close proximity to their operating base.

I had totally forgotten about the DDs escorting the Scharnhorst. Well, if only the pocket battleships weren't scattered already....

Hood and Bismarck are fascinating ships in that they are complete opposites in terms of reputation. Hood is, in popular circles, regarded as the rather badly designed gin palace whereas Bismarck is seen as the fantastic "uber battleship" only brought down by overwhelming force. In fact both were, by the standards of the day, rather mediocre designs essentialy born out of the last days of WW1. One of them however was lucky enough to score a 1 in a million hit on her opponent and thus earn a reputation that is rather overblown.

You've got it dead on here. I've never felt that the Bismark was the "Most powerful battleship in the world" as that episode of dogfight kept saying over and over again. She was a good ship, but under gunned and under armored for a battleship. As for the Hood, she is excellent for what she was, a battlecruiser. Not a battleship by any means and still slugged it out with a battleship.

If the Hood and King George could have shot worth a damn in their opening salvos that battle would have never left the first engagement.

-V