Howard, Tolkien and Lovecraft Comparative Studies (II)

[toothill man]

wow guys we are getting back to the point of the thread as a serious and sometimes long think on fantasy and the big 3 8) thank you for all adding your views they in my mind are ALL valid.

the fantasy thing intreasts me as I come from the old tradition of storytelling and entertaining using this framework to tell tales of wonder and awe.to make my players part of conans world and legends,to die trying to combat the old ones so the rest of the world sleeps free of nightmares and to see what they would do about gollum :wink: .does that make me sad :shock: dont think so but that is only my point of view their are a billion others out there 8)

 

[Taharqa]

Maybe you don't see it - but verbally assaulting people while engaging in a form of self-aggrandizement over the internet is a form of escapism. Usually such personality 'quirks' come from a feeling of helplessness and insecurity in real life.

That seems a little like the kettle and the pot, now doesn't it? I understand your frustration with Raven's posts, which I also find a bit peculiar, but you go too far.

It is very clear that REH and Tolkien developed very different kinds of fantasy worlds. This was not random, but rather reflected something about the authors themselves. My understanding of this thread is that it was exploring those contrasts. Why do you need to crash someone else's party?

p.s. Don't you dare call me "kiddo"

 

[Mark Dunder]

I went back and read your post Damien. You do make some valid points, and I was wrong to be flippant about it. I appologies.

It reminds me about Aesop's Fables, originally (or so I've read) Aesop's Fables, or at least the ones attributed to this collection, had nothing to do with the "moral of the story," they were just stories for entertainment.

Still, I am of the opinion that "hell" is still a cuss word, and you cussed.

 

[Damien]

That seems a little like the kettle and the pot, now doesn't it? I understand your frustration with Raven's posts, which I also find a bit peculiar, but you go too far.

We have differing opinions on what is going too far, I suppose. In my opinion if you bring up yourself, your personal life, and your own personality multiple times as part of an argument/debate - then that leaves those things open to interpretation by those who've proposed them to.

Generally, I see no reason to make judgement calls about a person's behaviour or person unless they themselves bring their behaviour and person into the discussion. If Raven has a problem with anything I've said - I'm sure she'll let me know herself, and she'll be advised by me to keep on subject rather than herself and it won't happen again.

In the interrum, you're welcome to make character judgements about any part of my personal character that I have brought into the discussion. I, personally, have no problem with it so long as it's initiated by the person who's personality is 'on trial' (so to speak).

It is very clear that REH and Tolkien developed very different kinds of fantasy worlds. This was not random, but rather reflected something about the authors themselves. My understanding of this thread is that it was exploring those contrasts.

It was, but conversations evolve. Though I think if you look closely enough that this is still the case - a comparison between the different outlooks. Raven is asserting that Howard's is more believable and that Tolkien's is too simplistic. I'm asserting that she is correct but is going about 'proving' her premise in the wrong way.

Why do you need to crash someone else's party?

What exactly does that mean - fervently disagreeing with someone's rationale? I thought that was exactly what happened in discussions. Wouldn't be much of a discussion if everyone just went "yeah.. you're right, because I don't want to crash your party."

p.s. Don't you dare call me "kiddo"

Noted.

Though as a side-note: The term 'kiddo' has no intrinsic meaning to it. It isn't inherently snide, as some may believe. I use the word often, myself - with everyone from friends to relatives (whether older or younger than myself). Any mood or tone behind it is put their by the reader, more often than not.

I went back and read your post Damien. You do make some valid points, and I was wrong to be flippant about it. I appologies.

Accepted. And you have my apologies if, in some way, I came across more vitriolic than I intended. No offense was meant - and none was taken for my part.

Still, I am of the opinion that "hell" is still a cuss word, and you cussed.

Noted. Just be aware, for future reference, that where I was raised 'hell' was never considered a swear, and therefore I use it whenever it strikes me without much regard for whether other people consider it a swear. Over the years it just became part of my common vocabulary.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

You really couldn't help poking the serpent with a stick could you? 8)

I understood perfectly. I'm saying it makes no sense. It's like saying that the number 10 is too high, but 12 is just fine. That because a character is fictional - anything he accomplishes is too great a standard, but if a real person accomplishes something even greater - then that's a perfectly acceptable standard.

? Perhaps you should back up you claim by quoting an example of a real person who tops Frodo's form of self sacrifice perhaps?

So I shouldn't be expected to uphold a code of personal honour simply because Sturm Brightblade did it, but I should be expected to conquer most of the known world - because Alexander the Great did it.

? Perhaps you see the destruction of native cultures and the massacre and slaughter of thousands for your own ego a moral example, eh? Okay- is Hitler your savior perhaps?

But again, I'll point out, fictional characters are part of stories. Stories are meant to be enjoyed. I've yet to see any author, any literary professor, or even any person, claim that fictional stories are narratives on how to live our lives. They're just stories meant to be enjoyed.

Actually stories tend to work more effectively than instruction for sinditioning purposes. This is why shamans use story telling to relate universal truths. The relazed atmosphere, the evocation of imahes drawn from the collective subconscious, the easy to follow chain of cause and effect 'show' rather than tell the subjects the information- whether it is valid or not. However once the act of storytelling became a secular thing the information being imparted was rather less wholesome. Now those methods to addict people to commerce and overstimulation and tends to create ADD zombies rather than enlightened people.

It's not Tolkien himself that's the problem- it's the nonsencial idea of "Good" and "Evil" that plagues the simplistic minds of the masses humanity.

Again - stories. Stories are not real life. If the 'masses of humanity' are plagued by a simplistic view of morality it isn't because they got it from stories. Indeed, those stories are a reflection of the 'masses of humanity's' belief (or desire for belief) in moral absolutes.

Stories- be they religious sermons or LotR are how such ideas are transmitted. Proof? Eliminate all memory and record of something and then to the generations past that point it does not exist. See any form of recorded history for an example. The collective consciouness of media contains the 'seed bank' of ideas that all future though stems off. Only problem- it's tainted.

Of you read Tolkien's later letters you'll see that he himself was horrified by the effects LotR had on people- people pretending to elves and hobbits [gods know what he'd think of LARPS] and other forms of fan worship which he likened to 'cultish behavior'. I suppose for the last part of his life, he knew where the power of advertisers, politicians and priests stemmed from. The ignorance of the masses and their desire for the 'new and shiny'- and their hunger for anything of greater substance than the stories they'd already be given.

In The Devil's Notebook Anton LaVey

Now there's a name that elicts respect. :roll:

discusses this - the good guy badge. Moral absolutism is a way for people to define themselves as good, and for them to be good there must be something that is evil. So moral absolutes in fiction are a reflection of that desire - to have something that simply is good. That's one of the reasons it's fantasy. We all know that true 'good' doesn't really exist, at least in the sense that it exists in Tolkien's works (or any other fantasy world, for that matter).

If we 'all' knew that would several French and Danish embassies be smouldering ruins right now? The masses are directed by the simple tales told to them by their reiligons and then they point the masses at the massess of their competitors. LotR fits with this cocnept as well- Free Peoples vs. Sauron's forces. So does virtually every single other work of fiction. It's just that LotR stands out in the pack. Teaching the same old lies about dualism- us vs. them.

If you're turned off by that particular outlook, that's fine. But to gripe about it is silly. It's fiction. Stories. That's all. Just stories meant to be enjoyed. If some people enjoy stories with moral absolutes, or cosmic truth to good and evil - great. More power to them. I don't believe in moral absolutes, but I can still enjoy a story about a pious knight killing an evil dragon. It's just a story.

Yet here you are defending that story from a critic. That conditioning can be real subtle can't it?

I would disagree. The concept of 'good' is just a concept. An idea. It is -how it is used- that makes it hard to swallow. And how it is used in real life has no relevance to how it is used in fiction - in stories that exist only to entertain. I would agree with you whole-heartedly if we were talking about a non-fiction philosophy book written to tell people how they should live and act. But we're not talking about a manual on how to be a good person - we're talking about fictional stories that are written to entertain.

And instruct. All stories provide an example of behavior- whether or not that is intential. I mean are we not all here 'cause we though Howard's example of behavior- that it resonated with something inside of us? Even if it's just topless babes and common bloodlust...

I don't believe in God - but I still think Christopher Walken was great in The Prophecy. You must learn to separate real life from fiction.

That's not really an issue for me. Real/pretend- got that down a long time ago. It's all the over conditioned less than 100 IQ cases running around out there that are problematic- be they Xtian, Al-Queda freedom fighters or people who honestly should cut back on the amont of time they spend on roleplaying for simple hygine purposes. To them, the line's a lot blurrier. That's why some people strap on some SEMTEX, walk into a bus station and blow themselves and 24 other people up. Why? 'Cause a work of fiction- the Koran- told them they'll get 72 houri in a pretend kingdom far away in the clouds. You and I- we know that's just conditioning used to produce cannon fodder. They believe it. That's what makes them dangerous- and the the guys who set this system geniuses.

I'm not saying that fiction shouldn't be written. Just maybe people should treat it like any other dangerous substance. 8)

Perhaps America will be destroyed in the near future. Or perhaps the government will be overthrown and 'fixed' so that it is once again designed to protect the people rather than police the planet. Who knows.

Since you later on accuse me of being passive to my goals, what are you doing about this goal, Mr. Servant of the Dark Lord?

It has no bearing on Howard. Howard's works are ultimately about civilization continuously collapsing under its own weight, and it's quite possible that such a pretense is no more 'realistic' than moral absolutes. In order for Howard to be any more 'correct' than Tolkien, we would have to live to see civilization collapse entirely and man devolve. Whether that will happen remains to be seen. Until it -does- happen (or until someone proves that it already happened way back before recorded history) then Howard's works are just as much fantasy as Tolkien's.

Different kinds of fantasy. Different kinds of fiction entirely. But still fiction.

Save for the fact we see Howard's vision coming to life on CNN on a daily basis these days. I mean under Hussein, Iraq had a civilization of sorts. Now they are overrun with barbarians of all sort- European and Muslim. Paris burned out of control for a week with imported barbarians running amok. Syria looks like the Cimmerians have jumped over the wall. Homebrew experiment- just cut the power in any major city for a few hours and watch a trial run of the barbarian invasions. All empires decline, all towers fall, all cities burn in time. I just hope I can be one of the barbarians.......I have some scores to settle. 8)

But we're not talking about interacting with the real world. We're talking about how one enjoys or views a fantasy setting with a fantasy cosmology and fictional characters. Whether or not you can enjoy stories about something is not (or should not be) affected by your personal perceptions of the real world. That's why it's fiction - it doesn't require you to agree. I know a LOT of Satanists that adore The Lord of the Rings as a great story, but would fervently disagree with virtually every moral situation and pretense in the book.

:chuckle: So is the reading group roundtable discussion before or after the blood offering?

Because they are able to separate their real-life views from the situations in a fictional world.

:I think everyone can write their own comment about Satanists claiming to be able to seperate fantasy from reality here:

From my POV things don't need to be saved- what everyone clings to these days pervents them from making any intellectual or evolutionary progress.

So maybe it is the concepts of intellectual and evolutionary progress that need to be saved?

Who knows. But believing nothing is worth saving, in my opinion, is a scapegoat to excuse doing nothing and serving no purpose.[/quote]

Ah yeah. The day I take moral instruction from a self-proclaimed Satanist I'll vote Nader. No in fact I believe in the cycle of destruction and rebirth. I want this curent stifling and corrupt culture to go down in flames and dance on the ashes- and see what new growth pops up. Maybe even shape it bit if I've got a chance.

Perhaps. Or perhaps your point of view allows you to sit idly by, content to say that nothing is worth fighting for. So you're allowing the world, by your own passivity, to continue to be a cesspool of big TVs and fat white businessmen.

Interesting that you believe I am passive. You know one can do things in RL that you can't see from the internet and trust me, I'm never idle. I learned black magic to destroy my enemies. That wel lin hand I am turning it to larger goals- to catalyze the detsructive forces inherant within all things and help thing fall down a little bit faster. That and I cause what material mischief I can too. These little sessions are about my only 'idle time'- I like to look back at my roots sometimes....

You have to look at it from all angles. Oftentimes people use their personal views, whatever those views are, as an excuse to do absolutely nothing.

Projecting much?

To me, "these people are all wrong and the world will right itself" sounds a lot like "I'm just going to sit here and not try to change anything myself, content that something else will come along and do it for me."

Well, if I heard someone say that'd I agree with your assessment. I didn't say that. That's likely you just projecting again.....

Yep. And it's called Natural Selection. Little Timmy reads stories about knights, grows up, keeps reading stories, and goes about his life in whatever way suits him best. Little Johnny reads stories about knights, grows up and starts killing people that he thinks are evil. Timmy lives to breed, Johnny gets the Death Penalty in Texas and doesn't get to breed.

It's Darwinian.

No, no. It's all those people who read it and sign up for the military that are the real problem. They present themselves as ready made tools for dangerous purposes directed by ignorant men. Then they wipe out people indiscriminate of natural selection. It's why the current drop is so weak blooded....

People retreat into internal fantasies to escape life. That's why I have players and this forum has people.

I take affrond to those types of mindless accusations. On the most negative end - people read fantasy or play RPGs to retreat from real life. On the most negative end people smoke and drink because they're addicted and alcoholics.

On the positive side - people read fantasy because they enjoy being entertained by a good story, smoke and drink because they like the taste.[/quote]

So you're claiming "My addiction is a aquired taste. His addiction is a dangerous vice?"

To assign a single motive or rationale to a hugely diverse group of people is borderlien criminally stupid.

Note- Although I posted insults earlier in this post, in the last one Damien decides he'll be the first violate nettiquette.

For my part - I read fantasy and play the Conan Roleplaying Game for the same reason that I watched The Wedding Crashers yesterday; I enjoy a good story. My life is full and complete. I'm engaged to a wonderful woman, my house will be finished at the end of this month (I take possession February 24th!)

Does the house's rooftop spin and spit green soup?

[/quote], have a car that I like, etc.[/quote]

Ah, more material for the future fires. See future post on flauting of wealth here.

And to claim otherwise is to insult the time-honoured tradition of story-telling. Anglo-Saxons didn't sit around listening to tales of war to escape reality (because, in fact, what they were hearing about was their reality) but rather because they enjoyed the heroics - the stories. Stories are exactly that - stories. How and why someone enjoys a story is entirely up to their personality and situation.

No- it's to condition the next bunch of stipid fools to don some honor and die for a rich man calling himself a lord so he can richer. They were the first recruitment videos. Now thousands of years later- not much has changed.

If someone only reads fantasy novels to escape real life - that's unfortunate. I pity such people for having less-than-satisfactory lives (while at the same time having contempt for them, as they clearly are not making an effort to have a better life). But to assign their motive to every person that reads, writes, or 'plays' fantasy is ludicrous.

No they are just the addicts that 'lost it'. Most people in world are functional addicts of some sort- be it alcohol, fanatsy, pronography, pot, heroin, etc. Not a lot of clean people in the world.

That's also why save for a small on-line game that's more of an experiment involving the use of Raven's Rules than a serious commitiment I don't play games for the most part and almost never read fantasy any more.

That's your choice. I find it sad that you weren't able to separate 'escape' from 'enjoyment.' I think your life would be much fuller if you could tell the difference.

Bite me, fanboy. You got your degree of psuchology from what university Dr. Servant of the Dark Lord? Tilll then don't bother analyzing me.

But it's your decision to make. Do what you will. In my opinion the gaming community really doesn't need people who are rather intent on denigrating the hobby. But that's just my .. point of view.

The hobby? Try humanity. I can't seperate from it, but I won't make myself feeble minded in order to try and overlook the problems they willingly embrace. Enjoy your material pleasures. May then not grow stale and boring too quickly.....

I feel no need to create a false sanctuary since I am strong enough to take the pain in this world others flee from.

Possibly. But from what I've garnered from your posts you create a false sanctuary right here. Maybe you don't see it - but verbally assaulting people while engaging in a form of self-aggrandizement over the internet is a form of escapism. Usually such personality 'quirks' come from a feeling of helplessness and insecurity in real life.

See previous post about my concerns for your untrained medical advice. I speak what I want to speak- not what other have tried to condition me to speak. Normally- when not provoked by suburbanite Satanists and such- I play nice and hold my tongue. Then people like you decide they need to gird armor and ride a white horse and come at me with a lance. Down boy. You're not the 'hero' here.

I would tend to think, rather, that you just have a bad attitude and instead of admitting it (or realizing it) you cower behind the pretense of enlightened self-interest and a realistic view of the world.

Just my point of view. And I don't mean to put your own character on trial, but in all fairness, you are the one that continually brings up your character in discussions rather than keeping on the subject matter.

Pity this isn't RL. Then you could see just how much I 'cower'. I guarentee I have a lot more fights under my belt than you do. And I see you hiding behind the pretense of 'mainstream is okay 'cause I'm okay'. Just another person's whose worth is determined by their bank account who claims to be a Satanist just to have a little color. Could have just as easily been gay, Wiccan, etc. Trying desperately to ride above the herd of cattle they so willingly became part of....too late now.

 

[Damien]

You really couldn't help poking the serpent with a stick could you?

Have stick, will poke, ya know?

? Perhaps you should back up you claim by quoting an example of a real person who tops Frodo's form of self sacrifice perhaps?

Ghandi?

How about those fellows that protest violence by lightning themselves on fire? That's a pretty extreme form of self-sacrifice. It's certainly, to my view, more extreme than trapsing around half-starved for under a year and having your finger bitten off.

? Perhaps you see the destruction of native cultures and the massacre and slaughter of thousands for your own ego a moral example, eh?

Or the spread of knowledge, the building of libraries all across the known world, and a zest for life? Again - it's all about perception. Romanians view Vlad Tepes as a hero (at least some do) while contemporary altruistic-types view him as a Sadistic psychopath. Perception.

Okay- is Hitler your savior perhaps?

Even if we're going to get personal here, I think comments like this are a little uncalled for.

Actually stories tend to work more effectively than instruction for sinditioning purposes. This is why shamans use story telling to relate universal truths. The relazed atmosphere, the evocation of imahes drawn from the collective subconscious, the easy to follow chain of cause and effect 'show' rather than tell the subjects the information- whether it is valid or not. However once the act of storytelling became a secular thing the information being imparted was rather less wholesome. Now those methods to addict people to commerce and overstimulation and tends to create ADD zombies rather than enlightened people.

A little diatribe to effectively say that storytelling is a form of brainwashing? Or am I missing your point?

Stories- be they religious sermons or LotR are how such ideas are transmitted. Proof? Eliminate all memory and record of something and then to the generations past that point it does not exist. See any form of recorded history for an example. The collective consciouness of media contains the 'seed bank' of ideas that all future though stems off. Only problem- it's tainted.

Well first - separate stories from accounts. A chronicle of factual events is not a story, in the sense being discussed here. A large part of the messages from generation to generation are imparted via study of the past, not study of fictional stories.

If you're claiming that fictional stories have vastly altered or affected civilization in any meaningful way - I would have to disagree. I've yet to see people basing their lives on LotR, or running around looking for a the wise old wizard from the Kalevala (sp?).


But to be honest, I'm finding your latest entry here a bit difficult to follow - seems very garbled. And no, that isn't an insult - just pointing it out in case I'm not responding to the point you were trying to make.

Of you read Tolkien's later letters you'll see that he himself was horrified by the effects LotR had on people- people pretending to elves and hobbits [gods know what he'd think of LARPS] and other forms of fan worship which he likened to 'cultish behavior'.

Cultish behaviour like that comes and goes. And it's a very small part of the population. I would say the majority of people are pretty horrified by it. I still can't wrap my head around people dressing up as fictional characters for conventions. People are strange. But that is not a commentary on civilization and humanity itself anymore than Christianity can be said to represent the religious beliefs of the entire world.

Now there's a name that elicts respect.

Like him or not - I don't think it really matters. The analogy was apt.

If we 'all' knew that would several French and Danish embassies be smouldering ruins right now?

That would be the good guy badge at work.

What I said, I thought quite clearly, was that the concept of cosmic good and evil, in the vein, say, of a D&D Paladin's "Detect Evil" is complete fantasy and I think most sane people are aware of that. You can believe yourself to be 'Good' and that everyone else is 'evil' - and even not consider that subjective, and still recognize that it is not some cosmic supernatural fact. -- the work of fanatic religionists notwithstanding.

The masses are directed by the simple tales told to them by their reiligons and then they point the masses at the massess of their competitors. LotR fits with this cocnept as well- Free Peoples vs. Sauron's forces. So does virtually every single other work of fiction. It's just that LotR stands out in the pack. Teaching the same old lies about dualism- us vs. them.

Except that Tolkien explicitly states in the Forward of The Lord of the Rings that he dislikes allegory - that his work is just a story. It's written right there in the front of the book. He isn't -teaching- anything, he isn't espousing any kind of belief system at all. He was telling a simple story.

Yet here you are defending that story from a critic. That conditioning can be real subtle can't it?

Put the vitriol aside for a second and try to follow the conversation. I'm defending the story - as a story. That's all it is. And fortunately for me - I know how to separate the real world from fiction. Try it.

And instruct. All stories provide an example of behavior- whether or not that is intential.

That's true - if you are incapable of separating fantasy from the real world.

I mean are we not all here 'cause we though Howard's example of behavior- that it resonated with something inside of us? Even if it's just topless babes and common bloodlust...

I'm here because I thought Howard's stories were entertaining pieces of fiction. Nothing more, nothing less. Again - I am able to separate simple entertainment from social commentary and real life.

I don't particularly feel inclined to split a man's head in two with a sword anymore than I feel inclined to believe in moral absolutes and Dualism.

Real/pretend- got that down a long time ago.

Well it does seem that you're having difficulties separating entertaining fiction from real life.

It's all the over conditioned less than 100 IQ cases running around out there that are problematic- be they Xtian, Al-Queda freedom fighters or people who honestly should cut back on the amont of time they spend on roleplaying for simple hygine purposes. To them, the line's a lot blurrier.

Is it? I haven't met a whole lot of gamers that don't understand that real life is real life, and their game sessions are just an entertaining past-time of cooperatively telling a fictional story.

hat's why some people strap on some SEMTEX, walk into a bus station and blow themselves and 24 other people up. Why? 'Cause a work of fiction- the Koran- told them they'll get 72 houri in a pretend kingdom far away in the clouds.

Religion has nothing to do with fantasy-fiction. I don't know anyone that walked into a bus station with some SEMTEX and killed 24 people because Huma of the Lance wanted him to destroy Crynus.

The fact that some people are psychotic over their religion has no bearing on the power of -stories-. It has everything to do with the power of -religion-. If LotR were selling itself as religion, we wouldn't be disagreeing. But it's not.

You and I- we know that's just conditioning used to produce cannon fodder. They believe it. That's what makes them dangerous- and the the guys who set this system geniuses.

They believe in religion though. The stories are PART of the religion. That is a totally separate concept from a story that isn't selling itself as anything but an entertaining story. Show me a line where Tolkien states that Middle-earth is a parallel for how we should live our lives and that Eru is looking down on all of us, promising us a kingdom of love if we do his work.

I'm not saying that fiction shouldn't be written. Just maybe people should treat it like any other dangerous substance.

Wait.. then we agree? Fiction itself is just fine - however it is designed cosmologically. The fact that some people are too stupid to separate fiction from reality is immaterial to that fact.

I would agree if all that you're saying is that people should not look to fiction for real-world enlightenment.

Since you later on accuse me of being passive to my goals, what are you doing about this goal, Mr. Servant of the Dark Lord?

What 'Dark Lord' am I a servant of, exactly?

And I'm not sure what you mean by 'about this goal.' Your goals are not my goals. To be honest I really don't care that the world is a cesspool of big TVs and obescity. If there is wrong in that - then show me where the wrong is. I couldn't care less that some guy has enough cheeseburgers in his heart to choke a horse. It doesn't bother me. My interests are entirely self-serving. So long as I am happy, the world can spiral into Hell at 300 miles per hour for all I care. I don't have a noble cause - and never claimed to.

If you're asking in what activity I engage due to my own beliefs - literacy. Before I moved out of the country I was involved in an adult literacy program. It's not world-saving or world-ending, but I like the idea of people being able to read, and I'd rather involve myself in that goal than to just hope mother nature shows up and mystically turns everyone literate.

Save for the fact we see Howard's vision coming to life on CNN on a daily basis these days.

Really? Civilization has been completely obliterated and has to start over again, including the complete de-evolution of mankind? I must have missed that on CNN when I was flipping over to The Daily Show.

All empires decline, all towers fall, all cities burn in time.

But civilization itself has endured. Until it fails utterly, then Howard's perceptions are no more realistic and correct than Tolkien's. Howard's are just less idealistic and more -fatalistic-.

chuckle: So is the reading group roundtable discussion before or after the blood offering?

Blood offering? What the hell are you talking about?

:I think everyone can write their own comment about Satanists claiming to be able to seperate fantasy from reality here:

Religion-bashing from an internet-tough-girl that thinks she can cast spells? C'mon now. I really don't think you're in any place to be talkin'.

No in fact I believe in the cycle of destruction and rebirth. I want this curent stifling and corrupt culture to go down in flames and dance on the ashes- and see what new growth pops up. Maybe even shape it bit if I've got a chance.

Well grab your Anarchist's Cookbook and get to it. Otherwise you're just another narcissistic stain on society that serves no purpose.

Interesting that you believe I am passive.

I pointed it out as a possibility. I never said it was fact, and never stated that I -believe- one way or the other.

I learned black magic to destroy my enemies.

Yeah, I've noticed you bring that up on these boards 20 or 30 times. It wasn't intimidating before, it isn't intimidating now. Actually, it seems like more escapism to me. Instead of facing your problems, as you claim to be so apt at doing, you retreat to your basement with a jar of pig's blood and some multi-colour candles, muttering "Oooh, I'm gunna get him."

Projecting much?

Is that the "enlightened, adult" version of "I'm rubber and you're glue?"

So you're claiming "My addiction is a aquired taste. His addiction is a dangerous vice?"

No, I'm stating the fact that one man's addiction is not necessarily another's. Are -you- trying to say that because a person can become addicted to sex, or chocolate, that anyone who has sex or eats chocolate is addicted? That's ridiculous.

Note- Although I posted insults earlier in this post, in the last one Damien decides he'll be the first violate nettiquette.

I think we went past netiquette the moment you brought your anti-everything personal values into the discussion.

Does the house's rooftop spin and spit green soup?

Well obviously.

Ah, more material for the future fires. See future post on flauting of wealth here.

Wealth? I never said I was wealthy. I said I like my car. It is not an expensive car - but I like it. I am contented by it as something that I have and can look at with pride.

I'm sorry that you believe that taking pleasure in material things is wrong. Maybe you should consider giving away all of your worldly possessions and becoming an angry, vitriolic monk?

Tilll then don't bother analyzing me.

You're the one that's putting your entire persona on display - every religious and political belief, whether it has any relevance to this thread or not. The analyzing is just a natural process from seeing someone bear so much of themselves.

And you've shown that you're quite incapable of telling the difference between fiction (and its effects on society) and real-life (and real-life things like religion). I was simply pointing that out.


And just out of curiosity - what exactly am I a fanboy -of-?

The hobby? Try humanity.

Nope, just the hobby. Your anti-gaming attitude doesn't really extend to all of humanity.

Enjoy your material pleasures.

I fully intend to.

See previous post about my concerns for your untrained medical advice. I speak what I want to speak- not what other have tried to condition me to speak. Normally- when not provoked by suburbanite Satanists and such- I play nice and hold my tongue. Then people like you decide they need to gird armor and ride a white horse and come at me with a lance. Down boy. You're not the 'hero' here.

My point exactly. Actually, looking back, pretty much the second half of your post proves my point.

Pity this isn't RL. Then you could see just how much I 'cower'.

Emotionally? I'm sure I would. Physically? Who knows. I don't think you'd have much to be scared of since I have an aversion to hitting girls, especially for no reason.

I guarentee I have a lot more fights under my belt than you do.

Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. Neither one of us would have any way of knowing that about the other, would we? Weren't you the one talking about how I don't know you well enough to judge what you do in real life?

Pot, meet Kettle.

And I see you hiding behind the pretense of 'mainstream is okay 'cause I'm okay'.

Really? I'm pretty sure I never said anything of the sort. 'Course, I don't use terms like "mainstream" because I'm not some posuer 16-year-old hanging out in my parent's basement talking about how awesome I am because I'm not a 'conformist.'

Just another person's whose worth is determined by their bank account

I determine my worth by who I am and how I feel about myself as a person. I am happy with who I am, and proud of the things that I have. You seem to judge your worth based on how hateful you can be of everyone around you, who you probably hate only because they are happier than you are with themselves. That's really sad, Raven. It really is.

who claims to be a Satanist just to have a little color.

So now you don't just insult religions, but you can tell what people's actual philosophical beliefs really are, and whether they believe in whatever religion they 'claim' to ascribe to? Those are some amazing psychic powers. Did you gain them through your astounding use of candle-magic (probably spelled "magick") and voodoo dolls?

Raven, seriously - grow up. When you do, you will realize that you're simply on the same rebellious, angry road that every teenage girl has been down.

 

[Old Bear]

I'm not particularly happy with the way this thread is going (and neither are the complaints I'm getting sent) and frankly some of the last posts have been longer than War & Peace, so I'm shutting this one down. Time to go play on another thread, people.