Mark Dunder
Mongoose
See! That's where those elves went wrong. I would have immediately asked "But where's the one for Earth?"
Damien said:Yes, but they were all sort of passive weren't they? Sat around and let evil grow while the fretted about small details, singing and discussing philosphy watching things wind down and fall apart. A little ruthlessness might have come in handy to keep the world in balance.
I don't disagree.
But ruthlessness wasn't part of Tolkien's view of goodness. And in the end, it was that unshakable honour to do only the right thing (as 'the right thing' exists in a world of moral absolutes) that saved Middle-earth (Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, etc).
It raises the bar of their expectation too high. Hobbtion, Riverdale, the Entwold, Lothlorein these things are too beautiful, too graceful to be real.
Raven Blackwell said:Killing Sauron would be like exectuting Osama Bin Laden, Jeffery Dahmer or the Son of Sam. You're just getting rid of something that can only cause you problems down the line.
Castel said:Raven Blackwell said:Killing Sauron would be like exectuting Osama Bin Laden, Jeffery Dahmer or the Son of Sam. You're just getting rid of something that can only cause you problems down the line.
Well in that line all other countries should nuke the US since they interfere with foreign politics.
But that line doesn´t lead any where, killing sauron would have just made you the new Sauron (in JRRT view).
It´s not that easy... it´s more of a point of view, and the problem is that good and evil only exist in our minds...
dunderm said:It raises the bar of their expectation too high. Hobbtion, Riverdale, the Entwold, Lothlorein these things are too beautiful, too graceful to be real.
Have you checked out our world of today? Redwoods, Grand Canyon, Great Wall of China, Golden Gate Bridge, Great Pyramids at Geza, and on and on.
And America is just a dream too, I suppose?
I think we can never raise our children's expectations too high.
No, this is competition.Raven Blackwell said:Really? I possessed a 3.2 GPA, came in seond in state's track and swim team finals in two events, tested at 92nd percentile in my state's education tests, read and wrote at the college level when I was in sixth grade and what did my mother say? "Where's the A? Where's the blue ribbon? Where's the 99th percentile?" Let me quote Gattaca here- "How perfect do your children have to be?" Setting the bar too high is why children give up even trying. All I have ever asked from students in magic is that they slowly improve themselves from what they were. I never ask why them why they aren't perfect yet. And yet with such 'diminshed expectations' they continue to slowly improve over time in all things, not just magic but school work and athletic accomplishments. I am hard but I am no tyrant- I never demean anyone in a misguided attempt to 'improve' them into the person I think they should be. That's nto parenting- that's sadism.
I am just saying that I think it's a bad example to children. No seriously. It raises the bar of their expectation too high.
I know of nothing in this world that needs so desperately to be saved.
What if Galadriel took the Ring and mastered it? What would Middle Earth be like under a Dark Queen? Like Glen Cooke's Black Company series perhaps? ("Serve the Lady!" )
And let's not forget- it is not Frodo's nobility that saves the world- it's Gollum's greed in desiring the Ring for himself. What does that say to Tolkien's worldview?
As for killing Sauron as he was a fallen angelous I agree they may not have been able to kill him- on the other hand they should have least tried.
Raven Blackwell said:I am not in fact bashing Tolkien- I am normally this sarcastic. 8)
something bigger and stronger will finish us off
tolkien thinks yes you fight but the past will be lost in a imperfect future.and howard has live for today grabbibg what you can while you can.
Damien said:Not to mention that real people, in real life, can and have far outstripped many fantasy characters in 'moral goodness.' Perhaps we should kill these people as soon as they surface, to keep them from being a 'bad example?'
I know of nothing in this world that needs so desperately to be saved.
I can think of a few things. It's all about personal perception. Your personal opinions on the world are immaterial. So are mine.
It's a story. Kids no more feel they need to be like Frodo than they feel that they might get attacked by Orcs on the way to Toys R' Us.
No you misunderstand- I mean that fiction can give us 'unrealistic' examples. If a real person can accomplish it, than obviously it can't be an unrealistic example can it?
It's not Tolkien himself that's the problem- it's the nonsencial idea of "Good" and "Evil" that plagues the simplistic minds of the masses humanity.
Nothing has done so much damage to the world as the concept of 'Good'.
Thise whoi want more than they can control are destroyed- like America in the near future.
Disagree with you there. You personal perceptions affect how you interact with the world.
From my POV things don't need to be saved- what everyone clings to these days pervents them from making any intellectual or evolutionary progress.
Thus with this POV I am not someone to look for anything but harsh truth and my actions and opinions may seem insane to peoplw who's greatest ambitions is to be fat, lazy, rich and have a big TV, own multiple game platforms and never leave their apartment.
Sane children yes. Sanity levels are a might low these day though.
People retreat into internal fantasies to escape life. That's why I have players and this forum has people.
That's also why save for a small on-line game that's more of an experiment involving the use of Raven's Rules than a serious commitiment I don't play games for the most part and almost never read fantasy any more.
I feel no need to create a false sanctuary since I am strong enough to take the pain in this world others flee from.
Looking back at this in game terms I think I have the view point of a sorcerer with 3-4 Points of Corruption....
Damien, I just couldn't read all of that long missive of yours, sorry. But what's wrong with bringing up your character stats? Far as I can remenber, we are discussing RPGs here and how they compare to Howard, Tolkein, and Lovecraft. Given this, I think talking about your character is right on target.
Don't cuss at me puddin
I don't think you've read your extremely long winded tirade, if you had, perhaps you would have just not sent it.
Besides your wrong, fiction reflects our own perceptions of reality, and we react to what we read exactly as we would in real life.
Much of what a writer puts on paper has many underlying truths about who we are, that is why we enjoy reading these stories. We can relate.
If you want to throw away the value of fiction, by a simple expressions, "it's only fiction" then you have a lot to learn.